MSF Course Pain and Suffering

Learning to ride in the rain isn't the issue. The issue is what you can
impart to someone in 8 hours of range time.

Another poster mentioned that he had never been out of 2nd gear until after
he got his motorcycle endorsement. Would have been the same for me, except
that I had a bike to horse around with at the local airport before I took
the course.

When only 8 hours are involved, you have to be realistic about what you can
impart to the students and stick to that set of goals. You just teach them
enough that they are aware of best techniques and have practiced most of
them up to and including 25mph or so.

The rest, including riding in the rain, they have to learn on their own. If
there were more than 8 hours of instruction ... perhaps ... but not with
only 8.

The other issue is teaching only one or two things at a time. Rain is
overwhelming. It is physiologically distracting, and won't tolerate hard
braking that well.

Besides, what does a student really _learn_ by taking the MSF course in the
rain? They learn that water gets them wet and that the bike slides in all
directions more easily on a wet surface. They may also learn that falling
hurts.

They can learn that water gets them wet on their own.

They can learn that the bike slips and slides easier in all directions on
their own. And, because the MSF course taught them that academically,
they'll be more cautious on their own.

Most absolutely learn that falling hurts on their own.

Water adds no value.

Dave.

Posted by NA on September 22, 2008, 1:33 pm

On 9/22/2008 12:57 PM EDT, David T. Ashley wrote:

> ...

> Besides, what does a student really _learn_ by taking the MSF course in

> the rain? They learn that water gets them wet and that the bike slides

> in all directions more easily on a wet surface. They may also learn

> that falling hurts.

> They can learn that water gets them wet on their own.

> They can learn that the bike slips and slides easier in all directions

> on their own. And, because the MSF course taught them that

> academically, they'll be more cautious on their own.

> Most absolutely learn that falling hurts on their own.

> Water adds no value.

> Dave.

Sorry, I beg to differ with your opinion. There's nothing comparable to
practical experience when it comes to learning--especially riding.
Those riders that came out of this class held in the rain has a greater
appreciation and awareness of the dangers and skills required, and would
exercise greater caution when they do encounter their first outing on
the street under rainy conditions. Novice riders' first brake lockup
and slide on wet pavement while in traffic will be much more life
threatening than in a controlled class environment. There are also
qualified instructors looking on to provide critiques and guidances to
bad practices and improper reactions which if uncorrected will
eventually become bad habits endangering the new rider. Since the
riding time to the MSF classes is so short, every exposure to varying
conditions and experiences is a benefit to the students I believe.

Posted by David T. Ashley on September 22, 2008, 2:25 pm

> On 9/22/2008 12:57 PM EDT, David T. Ashley wrote:

>> ...

>> Besides, what does a student really _learn_ by taking the MSF course in

>> the rain? They learn that water gets them wet and that the bike slides

>> in all directions more easily on a wet surface. They may also learn that

>> falling hurts.

>> They can learn that water gets them wet on their own.

>> They can learn that the bike slips and slides easier in all directions on

>> their own. And, because the MSF course taught them that academically,

>> they'll be more cautious on their own.

>> Most absolutely learn that falling hurts on their own.

>> Water adds no value.

>> Dave.

> Sorry, I beg to differ with your opinion. There's nothing comparable to

> practical experience when it comes to learning--especially riding. Those

> riders that came out of this class held in the rain has a greater

> appreciation and awareness of the dangers and skills required, and would

> exercise greater caution when they do encounter their first outing on the

> street under rainy conditions. Novice riders' first brake lockup and

> slide on wet pavement while in traffic will be much more life threatening

> than in a controlled class environment. There are also qualified

> instructors looking on to provide critiques and guidances to bad practices

> and improper reactions which if uncorrected will eventually become bad

> habits endangering the new rider. Since the riding time to the MSF

> classes is so short, every exposure to varying conditions and experiences

> is a benefit to the students I believe.

The arguments you've made are absolutely valid. I understand your point of
view.

However, I still feel it was unfair to my friend who was trying hard to
achive the minimum stopping distance on a wet surface and dropped the bike.
There was too much going on. It is asking a lot for a beginning rider to
recognize that the front wheel (and probably the back wheel too) is skidding
and to let off the front brake. The basic rider course isn't the right
place for that on an impromptu basis.

If you want to do that, then lengthen the course and have exercises where
students lock up the front and practice releasing it. Get sprinklers out on
the course. But don't do that inadvertently ...

Posted by NA on September 22, 2008, 3:51 pm

On 9/22/2008 2:25 PM EDT, David T. Ashley wrote:

> However, I still feel it was unfair to my friend who was trying hard to

> achive the minimum stopping distance on a wet surface and dropped the bike.

> There was too much going on. It is asking a lot for a beginning rider to

> recognize that the front wheel (and probably the back wheel too) is skidding

> and to let off the front brake. The basic rider course isn't the right

> place for that on an impromptu basis.

> If you want to do that, then lengthen the course and have exercises where

> students lock up the front and practice releasing it. Get sprinklers out on

> the course. But don't do that inadvertently ...

If student riders consider the MSF course to be 'unfair', 'too much
going on', and couldn't handle the stress and pressure from the class
then they are probably not quite ready to be on the road just yet. If
students just want to be fair weather riders, then they can choose not
to attend the MSF class being held on a wet day--forfeiting their course
fee of course--and sign up for another day in hopes of dry conditions.

Posted by sleazy rider on September 22, 2008, 6:31 pm

> However, I still feel it was unfair to my friend who was trying hard to

> achive the minimum stopping distance on a wet surface and dropped the bik=

> There was too much going on. =A0It is asking a lot for a beginning rider =

> recognize that the front wheel (and probably the back wheel too) is skidd=

ing

> and to let off the front brake. =A0The basic rider course isn't the right

> place for that on an impromptu basis.

So, you would rather they learn about it on the street and crash in
front of a semi-truck? Grow a clue and look at it from the
instructor's viewpoint. He's the one that gives out the passing
grades and keeps the really stupid ones from getting out into public
being unable to control a motorcycle sufficiently not to hurt
themselves or others. My first time in the course was done totally in
the rain and it didn't bother me at all. My oldest boy had SNOW in
the lot during his course. It's a fact of life that weather plays a
large part in the control of a two wheeled vehicle. The BRC is a
weeding out process and they got plucked.

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