Posted by Andrzej Rosa on September 27, 2008, 7:12 pm
Dnia 2008-09-27 The Older Gentleman napisał(a):
>> > I agree you get some fork dive with Telelever, but nowhere near as much
>> > as with conventional telescopic forks.
>>
>> What do you mean by fork dive? It looks like we can't agree on
>> definitions.
> Ah, well that wouldn't be the first time.
> I mean the front end of the bike does not dip as noticeably.
Where "noticeable" is the crucial part?
--
Andrzej Rosa
Posted by Vito on September 27, 2008, 7:49 pm
If Paralever and Telelever improve handling as much as BMW and BMW owners
claim they do then why did BMW build what is essentially UJM with regular
(upside down) forks and a transverse 4 to go racing with???
Posted by Andrzej Rosa on September 27, 2008, 2:54 pm
Dnia 2008-09-27 Marc Gerges napisał(a):
>>
>>> In practice most people couldn't care less about the relative merits of
>>> different suspensions are in various food groups. We've got roads, over
>>> here.
>>
>> I know. I lived for about five years in Berlin. But still argument
>> like "we don't need suspension, so it is fine" is no argument at all.
> The argument was that a road bike is probably different than a desert
> bike. I wouldn't compare my cars suspension with the one on a Humvee,
> either.
IMO you would be wrong. Dirt racing was the main reason we have good
suspension nowadays. Strangely enough, both dirt and road racers have
the same type of suspension units, and your car and Humvee also shares
the technology. What works on dirt will work everywhere.
>>> I'm not quite convinced of that.
>>
>> Forks dive due to a mass transfer. Telelever doesn't counteract it.
> The trick is that it counteracts - the weight transfer pushes the bike
> up instead of down.
You mean the handlebar, not the bike. The CoG of the bike goes down,
the forks shorten, the spring compresses just like on the real bike, it
is only the rider who is fooled to believe that his bike actually stands
up (while in reality the bike is just folded in half).
Anyway, what goes up must come down. You will have all of that reversed
under acceleration.
--
Andrzej Rosa
Posted by Marc Gerges on September 27, 2008, 3:56 pm
>>
>> The argument was that a road bike is probably different than a desert
>> bike. I wouldn't compare my cars suspension with the one on a Humvee,
>> either.
>
> IMO you would be wrong. Dirt racing was the main reason we have good
> suspension nowadays. Strangely enough, both dirt and road racers have
> the same type of suspension units, and your car and Humvee also shares
> the technology. What works on dirt will work everywhere.
Apart from the fact that dirt racing would be something different again
from riding in the desert, I'll let you know as soon as I find portal
gears on my cars.
>>>> I'm not quite convinced of that.
>>>
>>> Forks dive due to a mass transfer. Telelever doesn't counteract it.
>>
>> The trick is that it counteracts - the weight transfer pushes the bike
>> up instead of down.
>
> You mean the handlebar, not the bike.
I do mean the bike alright.
> The CoG of the bike goes down,
> the forks shorten, the spring compresses just like on the real bike, it
> is only the rider who is fooled to believe that his bike actually stands
> up (while in reality the bike is just folded in half).
No. The braking moment on the front wheel counters the force from weight
transfer, thereby holding the bike up. Research anti dive suspension.
You can have them on cars, too.
It's plain physics.
> Anyway, what goes up must come down. You will have all of that reversed
> under acceleration.
There's no force on the front of a bike that would reverse in
acceleration what the braking force does in deceleration. That comes
from the fact that the bike is rear wheel drive.
BMW, though, has found a way to make the rear not squat under
acceleration, though :)
cu
.\arc
braking force does
Posted by Andrzej Rosa on September 27, 2008, 7:28 pm
Dnia 2008-09-27 Marc Gerges napisał(a):
>
>> IMO you would be wrong. Dirt racing was the main reason we have good
>> suspension nowadays. Strangely enough, both dirt and road racers have
>> the same type of suspension units, and your car and Humvee also shares
>> the technology. What works on dirt will work everywhere.
> Apart from the fact that dirt racing would be something different again
> from riding in the desert, I'll let you know as soon as I find portal
> gears on my cars.
You could at some time. Sure, clearance is not _crucial_ for road
cars, but it helps too.
>>> The trick is that it counteracts - the weight transfer pushes the bike
>>> up instead of down.
>>
>> You mean the handlebar, not the bike.
> I do mean the bike alright.
>> The CoG of the bike goes down,
>> the forks shorten, the spring compresses just like on the real bike, it
>> is only the rider who is fooled to believe that his bike actually stands
>> up (while in reality the bike is just folded in half).
> No. The braking moment on the front wheel counters the force from weight
> transfer, thereby holding the bike up. Research anti dive suspension.
> You can have them on cars, too.
> It's plain physics.
Go ahead, enlighten me.
>> Anyway, what goes up must come down. You will have all of that reversed
>> under acceleration.
> There's no force on the front of a bike that would reverse in
> acceleration what the braking force does in deceleration.
That, like, really makes no sense at all, though I had some beers in me
so I may be slow.
> That comes
> from the fact that the bike is rear wheel drive.
> BMW, though, has found a way to make the rear not squat under
> acceleration, though :)
Sure. They found it out in, what, late twenties? When they used shaft
drive for the first time on a bike with rear suspension.
(They built really good bikes then. I rode some Russian and Ukrainian
copies and they are surprisingly competent machines, even now. Mighty
good job, that.)
--
Andrzej Rosa
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>> > as with conventional telescopic forks.
>>
>> What do you mean by fork dive? It looks like we can't agree on
>> definitions.
> Ah, well that wouldn't be the first time.
> I mean the front end of the bike does not dip as noticeably.