Now this might be a little ambitious

 As much as I like the Road King the power output is a little on the
anemic side. It will get you where you want to go, but it takes a while.
It needs more oomph to keep me happy for much longer.

First a little background.  It is an 04 Road King with a TC 88.
Installed a few years ago were S&S 510 gear driven cams, high flow
fueling oil pump, fueling lifters, Power Commander III, K&N air filter
and adjustable push rods. The pipes are street legal HD touring pipes.
Not stock but quiet and I assume restrictive. I like the sound as it is
and am not interested in loud pipes.  Further there are too many noise
bylaws targeting bikes and I do not want to be worried about goofy local
bylaws when I ride from one jurisdiction to another.

After I had this work done the mechanic dyno tuned it.  I just looked
for the dyno chart and couldn't find it, but if memory serves it tested
at around 63 HP and I do not recall what the torque numbers were.  70's
I thought.

I have chatted with Harley (two dealerships) and their price for bumping
it up to a 96 very quickly goes north of $3k.  Same price range ($2.5k)
from the guy who did the initial work. Candidly, I am not interested in
putting that kind of money into an 04.

So over in another forum I have read many good things about a company
called AMA out of Texas.
http://www.automotivemachine.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&idF&ItemidS

The owner, Tom, is a regular contributor to the forum and seems to be
very well respected.  Today I read an thread about a problem a guy had
with carbon build up. Tom chipped in with what sounded to me like very
good advice [1]

Where I am going with all this is I am considering upgrading the RK to a
96 myself.  For those who know me, know this would be a major project.
Although I ride with one of the more complete tool kits I have seen, I
am not well known for my mechanical skills. That said winters are long
around here and I wouldn't mind challenging myself with this project.
Hard to believe I am thinking about winter already.

I can pick up a big bore kit for $400 US exchange. Even with gaskets and
other incidentals the price for parts shouldn't go over a grand. What
other parts would be required for a build like this?

So considering this is a low tech, rudimentary and crude HD engine, is
this a big job? Better question is is this a technical job. Given time,
patience and a little help from my friends is this something a novice
garage mechanic could tackle successfully? It is all top end stuff.

I am not overly worried about dyno tuning. My sense is I could get a
canned map for the PC III that would be close enough.

I am more thinking out loud right now, but would be interested in
constructive comments from those who are familiar with this type of work.


[1] Tom AMS comments

you're close :) ... we're seeing more and more carbon build up on
pistons and valves as fuel blends use more and more ethanol and/or MTBE
& other octane enhancing chemicals. Typically E10 is assumed to be up to
10% ethanol - but in reality the blends at the local level can actually
vary quite a bit more - in most cases anything 12%+ should only be used
in "flex-fuel" engines. E85 (15%) is terrible fuel for an air cooled HD,
IMHO. The "carbon" is not like that from oil consumption, which is
usually softer and flakes or scrape off easily - this stuff is hard,
sticks like gorilla snot. very common on pistons, less so on valves, but
heat soaking seems to make it worse, which is why it seems to always
effect the rear cyl most. the scenerio I think it follows is, at shut
down after a good ride, the rear exh valve is still hot 'nuff to "Coke
any unburnt fuel (remember, the ignition was just turned off, so no
spark, but there is still that last squirt from the injector or from
carb in the cyl), the fuel cokes and covers the valve. under normal
operation the next time you fire the engine, the coating will flake or
burn off - but its seems the E-blend fuel's can build up a bit if the
A/F is even a tiny bit rich - and over the miles it can eventually stick
enough to not let the valve seal. This explains why it was running
perfectly the day before, and then the next morning just hit on the
front cylinder - that last heat soak / coking when shut doen was the
"straw that broke the camel's back".
your slight increase in blow-by seems to be an oil pump wear or
alignment condition, or possibly an umbrella valve malfunction (more
common than folks realize), as your pistons and jugs looked great, and
the rings had only the typical slight wear from +/- 20k miles. I asked
you to send them in for inspection because i was initially concerned
carbon / coking may have caused a ring to stick in the piston's groove -
but the were fine. I asked my son Eric to personally work them & the
heads up for you; to check every thing very carefully to be sure all was
100%. When he suggested it would be just as easy to completely rework
the heads, etc, instead of just checking stuff, I agreed and OK'd
it...plus that would get you all the upgrades we've made since yours
were done a couple of yrs ago. Still the same free machine-shop labor
"Refresh" deal we offer forum members anytime the heads or off the motor
for any reason. (I'd like to let forum members who may be reading this,
know that the original purchaser of your AMS heads went out of biz, and
that even tho you weren't the original purchaser, and they are well past
the 12,000 mile warranty period, I will often offer forum members with
AMS heads, regardless of time/miles, free machines shop labor to
inspection and re-fresh. I personally offer this to say thanks to forum
members for supporting AMS over the yrs :) It also lets us collect real
world data and evaluate performance upgrades, as mat'l and processes
improve over the years.

Glad you posted because even tho Eric and Steve do a great job, I still
like to "keep in touch" to be sure the folks on the forum is well taken
care of... if you have any questions or concerns Eric or Steve can't
handle to your satisfaction, don't hesitate to give me a call. BTW, if
Steve hasn't already done so, give him a call and go over the parts
list, to make sure you have everything needed for reassembly. nothin'
sux worse than discovering you don't have an oil pump o-ring or some 25¢
part in the middle of puttin' it all back together :( I'll ping Steve a
reminder just in case...

One more dumb question - are you running a K&N or SE type air cleaner
that requires oiling? If so, before you re-fit it, follow the
recommended cleaning steps and litely re-oil it. This will help a lot
when you have the carb tuned.

also wanted to let folks know we about or recent "Bad Gas Motor" R&D,
having gathered 22 months & 50K miles of real world data that proves the
combo works well with even the crappiest fuel. We'll be offering a "Bad
Gas Motor" option for our 2007 and up 105" builds to folks who live in
an area where getting premium/consistently good fuel is difficult. As
one "test pilot" reported back, "This thing will run on kerosene!"; we
don't recommend anyone try it, but we have tested it on some nasty fuel
blends, with good results.

sorry for being so long winded ...
Tom - AMS




--
Disclaimer
Do not believe a thing I have said, unless you already know it to be
true, or can independently verify it from another source.

Reeky Ride To The Rockies
http://actualriders.ca/reekyrockies.htm

 A good, quality torque wrench is an absolute must, so don't skimp on one.

A factory repair manual, as well as a Clymer or other third-party manual, is
required, in my opinion.  I would study both a couple times before even
thinking of starting work.

Of course, some quality time with Google is highly recommended.  No doubt
plenty of folks have done this same project, and have shared the shortcuts
and pitfalls already.  This saved me a good chunk of money, time, effort,
and cursing at my Valk.

Just in case;

I highly recommend a couple large boxes of donuts.  Bring them to the local
Harley shops and ask them the same question.  Kissing ass to those who can
help you always pays off.

Another box or two to friends with pickup trucks and ramps couldn't hurt
either.

I always like to have a backup plan.

CS



"Calgary (Don)"  wrote in message

As much as I like the Road King the power output is a little on the
anemic side. It will get you where you want to go, but it takes a while.
It needs more oomph to keep me happy for much longer.

First a little background.  It is an 04 Road King with a TC 88.
Installed a few years ago were S&S 510 gear driven cams, high flow
fueling oil pump, fueling lifters, Power Commander III, K&N air filter
and adjustable push rods. The pipes are street legal HD touring pipes.
Not stock but quiet and I assume restrictive. I like the sound as it is
and am not interested in loud pipes.  Further there are too many noise
bylaws targeting bikes and I do not want to be worried about goofy local
bylaws when I ride from one jurisdiction to another.

After I had this work done the mechanic dyno tuned it.  I just looked
for the dyno chart and couldn't find it, but if memory serves it tested
at around 63 HP and I do not recall what the torque numbers were.  70's
I thought.

I have chatted with Harley (two dealerships) and their price for bumping
it up to a 96 very quickly goes north of $3k.  Same price range ($2.5k)
from the guy who did the initial work. Candidly, I am not interested in
putting that kind of money into an 04.

So over in another forum I have read many good things about a company
called AMA out of Texas.
http://www.automotivemachine.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&idF&ItemidS

The owner, Tom, is a regular contributor to the forum and seems to be
very well respected.  Today I read an thread about a problem a guy had
with carbon build up. Tom chipped in with what sounded to me like very
good advice [1]

Where I am going with all this is I am considering upgrading the RK to a
96 myself.  For those who know me, know this would be a major project.
Although I ride with one of the more complete tool kits I have seen, I
am not well known for my mechanical skills. That said winters are long
around here and I wouldn't mind challenging myself with this project.
Hard to believe I am thinking about winter already.

I can pick up a big bore kit for $400 US exchange. Even with gaskets and
other incidentals the price for parts shouldn't go over a grand. What
other parts would be required for a build like this?

So considering this is a low tech, rudimentary and crude HD engine, is
this a big job? Better question is is this a technical job. Given time,
patience and a little help from my friends is this something a novice
garage mechanic could tackle successfully? It is all top end stuff.

I am not overly worried about dyno tuning. My sense is I could get a
canned map for the PC III that would be close enough.

I am more thinking out loud right now, but would be interested in
constructive comments from those who are familiar with this type of work.


[1] Tom AMS comments

you're close :) ... we're seeing more and more carbon build up on
pistons and valves as fuel blends use more and more ethanol and/or MTBE
& other octane enhancing chemicals. Typically E10 is assumed to be up to
10% ethanol - but in reality the blends at the local level can actually
vary quite a bit more - in most cases anything 12%+ should only be used
in "flex-fuel" engines. E85 (15%) is terrible fuel for an air cooled HD,
IMHO. The "carbon" is not like that from oil consumption, which is
usually softer and flakes or scrape off easily - this stuff is hard,
sticks like gorilla snot. very common on pistons, less so on valves, but
heat soaking seems to make it worse, which is why it seems to always
effect the rear cyl most. the scenerio I think it follows is, at shut
down after a good ride, the rear exh valve is still hot 'nuff to "Coke
any unburnt fuel (remember, the ignition was just turned off, so no
spark, but there is still that last squirt from the injector or from
carb in the cyl), the fuel cokes and covers the valve. under normal
operation the next time you fire the engine, the coating will flake or
burn off - but its seems the E-blend fuel's can build up a bit if the
A/F is even a tiny bit rich - and over the miles it can eventually stick
enough to not let the valve seal. This explains why it was running
perfectly the day before, and then the next morning just hit on the
front cylinder - that last heat soak / coking when shut doen was the
"straw that broke the camel's back".
your slight increase in blow-by seems to be an oil pump wear or
alignment condition, or possibly an umbrella valve malfunction (more
common than folks realize), as your pistons and jugs looked great, and
the rings had only the typical slight wear from +/- 20k miles. I asked
you to send them in for inspection because i was initially concerned
carbon / coking may have caused a ring to stick in the piston's groove -
but the were fine. I asked my son Eric to personally work them & the
heads up for you; to check every thing very carefully to be sure all was
100%. When he suggested it would be just as easy to completely rework
the heads, etc, instead of just checking stuff, I agreed and OK'd
it...plus that would get you all the upgrades we've made since yours
were done a couple of yrs ago. Still the same free machine-shop labor
"Refresh" deal we offer forum members anytime the heads or off the motor
for any reason. (I'd like to let forum members who may be reading this,
know that the original purchaser of your AMS heads went out of biz, and
that even tho you weren't the original purchaser, and they are well past
the 12,000 mile warranty period, I will often offer forum members with
AMS heads, regardless of time/miles, free machines shop labor to
inspection and re-fresh. I personally offer this to say thanks to forum
members for supporting AMS over the yrs :) It also lets us collect real
world data and evaluate performance upgrades, as mat'l and processes
improve over the years.

Glad you posted because even tho Eric and Steve do a great job, I still
like to "keep in touch" to be sure the folks on the forum is well taken
care of... if you have any questions or concerns Eric or Steve can't
handle to your satisfaction, don't hesitate to give me a call. BTW, if
Steve hasn't already done so, give him a call and go over the parts
list, to make sure you have everything needed for reassembly. nothin'
sux worse than discovering you don't have an oil pump o-ring or some 25¢
part in the middle of puttin' it all back together :( I'll ping Steve a
reminder just in case...

One more dumb question - are you running a K&N or SE type air cleaner
that requires oiling? If so, before you re-fit it, follow the
recommended cleaning steps and litely re-oil it. This will help a lot
when you have the carb tuned.

also wanted to let folks know we about or recent "Bad Gas Motor" R&D,
having gathered 22 months & 50K miles of real world data that proves the
combo works well with even the crappiest fuel. We'll be offering a "Bad
Gas Motor" option for our 2007 and up 105" builds to folks who live in
an area where getting premium/consistently good fuel is difficult. As
one "test pilot" reported back, "This thing will run on kerosene!"; we
don't recommend anyone try it, but we have tested it on some nasty fuel
blends, with good results.

sorry for being so long winded ...
Tom - AMS




--
Disclaimer
Do not believe a thing I have said, unless you already know it to be
true, or can independently verify it from another source.

Reeky Ride To The Rockies
http://actualriders.ca/reekyrockies.htm  

 On 29/07/2011 7:54 PM, CS wrote:

I am thinking along the same lines.


I have this one covered, covered twice actually.

I have the factory shop manual and the Clymer (or Haynes don't recall
which) products are on line now.


Product specific forums are a terrific resource.


The HD techs around here are not a lot of help. At least that has been
my experience.

I have the truck and I usually bribe my friends with beer to help me
load it.

Disclaimer
Do not believe a thing I have said, unless you already know it to be
true, or can independently verify it from another source.

Reeky Ride To The Rockies
http://actualriders.ca/reekyrockies.htm

 Calgary (Don) wrote:

  I'm pretty sure you can find a smaller rear pulley for yours . I don't
know what your stock one is , but I went around 7% higher overall ratio .
Didn't make much difference in mileage , but the bike just seems to eat up
the miles now . You can also go the other way and put a bigger front on ,
but that's a whole lot more work .
  eBay is your friend ...
--
Snag
Learning keeps
you young !

 

It was the acceleration that was lacking. Coming off a short on-ramp,
onto an autobahn where things were moving *very* fast, and I frequently
had the throttle pinned to the stop to get the bastard thing up to the
necessary 80-90mph in time.

Then again, it was the old asthmatic 1340cc lump..... and now they've
got a bit more beans, I suppose. It was still drastically underpowered
in stock form, at least for European riding.

Cruised happily at around 75-80, which was OK-ish.

But the core point still remains - why don't HD make their lumps more
powerful when (a) it can easily be done and (b) it wouldn't really cost
anything to do so? It can only be because they've got this lovely
aftermarket tuning business they don't want to lose.

I like a few of them. Dammit, I was very close to buying an ultra (hah!)
low miler Electra Glide a few months ago. ISTR asking a question or two
here about whether 2005 models had any issues.

I strongly suspect though that, in stock trim, they're really not
powerful enough for all European road situations. This theory is borne
out by the fact that only once here have I ever seen HDs being ridden
what I'd call 'fast' over any distance.

Generally, they trundle, and that's fine: I often like to trundle. But
there are always times when touring that demand *speed* - missed
deadline, ferry to catch, storm to outrun, restaurant to reach before
the kitchen closes, hotel to find before it gets dark, etc etc.


--
BMW K1100LT  Ducati 750SS  Kawasaki GPz750  Honda CB400F  
Triumph Street Triple  Suzuki Freewind, TS250ERx2, GN250.
So many bikes, so little garage space....
chateau dot murray at idnet dot com