Posted by David T. Ashley on June 7, 2008, 4:39 pm
> There is a thing in many new cars and BMW motorcycles, the CanBus, which
> a serial protocol that various electronic bits and pieces can use to
> talk to one another. So the thing about how in BMW cars, turning on the
> windshield wipers makes the brakes apply very lightly, just enough to
> dry them, can be easily implemented. Unfortunately, things like
> headlight modulators, taillight modulators, and LED taillights screw
> with the broken-bulb detectors. And the CanBus has had teething problems
> in BMW "hexheads".
> But you still need a way to power all those gizmos...
The power is the point.
I used to work on luxury cars, and I presently do work with CAN.
A few points ...
As of several years ago, many vehicles were approaching a 2kW electrical
system (maybe they're already there). The issue with higher voltage is that
one can use less copper and transmit the same power because the wire sizing
is related to the current rather than the voltage. The upper limit on the
voltage is:
a)Insulation breakdown.
b)Human safety.
(a) isn't a concern at all with modern insulations. (b) I think led to the
adoption of 48V as the standard. It was as high as they could go without
endangering the people who service the vehicles, both professionally and
recreationally.
As far as CAN ...
CAN (and vehicle networks in general have led to two trends).
First, when all the electronics can talk to each other, you can have
features that you couldn't have otherwise, or at least couldn't have without
a lot of extra wire.
Second, the tendency is towards "zonal" electronics. If the vehicle horn is
closer to the engine controller than the instrument cluster, it makes sense
to wire it to the engine controller. Driver presses the horn switch, is
sensed by instrument cluster, message is transmitted via CAN to the engine
controller, horn relay is closed, etc.
Some of the older luxury cars are good example. Due to the complexity of
power windows, there were some wiring harnesses going into doors where there
were about 50 conductors. CAN can get it down to 4 (power, ground, and two
network wires). The fact that the power windows are all controllable from
the driver's door can be done via network messages.
Posted by Timberwoof on June 7, 2008, 10:02 pm
> > There is a thing in many new cars and BMW motorcycles, the CanBus, which
> > a serial protocol that various electronic bits and pieces can use to
> > talk to one another. So the thing about how in BMW cars, turning on the
> > windshield wipers makes the brakes apply very lightly, just enough to
> > dry them, can be easily implemented. Unfortunately, things like
> > headlight modulators, taillight modulators, and LED taillights screw
> > with the broken-bulb detectors. And the CanBus has had teething problems
> > in BMW "hexheads".
> >
> > But you still need a way to power all those gizmos...
>
> The power is the point.
>
> I used to work on luxury cars, and I presently do work with CAN.
>
> A few points ...
>
> As of several years ago, many vehicles were approaching a 2kW electrical
> system (maybe they're already there).
Holy shit!
Otoh, I can understand that. My BMW has a 750 W alternator to run the
ABS, extra lights, heated vests, and so forth.
> The issue with higher voltage is that
> one can use less copper and transmit the same power because the wire sizing
> is related to the current rather than the voltage. The upper limit on the
> voltage is:
>
> a)Insulation breakdown.
>
> b)Human safety.
>
> (a) isn't a concern at all with modern insulations. (b) I think led to the
> adoption of 48V as the standard. It was as high as they could go without
> endangering the people who service the vehicles, both professionally and
> recreationally.
>
> As far as CAN ...
>
> CAN (and vehicle networks in general have led to two trends).
>
> First, when all the electronics can talk to each other, you can have
> features that you couldn't have otherwise, or at least couldn't have without
> a lot of extra wire.
>
> Second, the tendency is towards "zonal" electronics. If the vehicle horn is
> closer to the engine controller than the instrument cluster, it makes sense
> to wire it to the engine controller. Driver presses the horn switch, is
> sensed by instrument cluster, message is transmitted via CAN to the engine
> controller, horn relay is closed, etc.
>
> Some of the older luxury cars are good example. Due to the complexity of
> power windows, there were some wiring harnesses going into doors where there
> were about 50 conductors. CAN can get it down to 4 (power, ground, and two
> network wires). The fact that the power windows are all controllable from
> the driver's door can be done via network messages.
You explained it better than I did. Thanks. :-)
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com>
faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml
Ten Steps to Fascism: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html
Posted by David T. Ashley on June 8, 2008, 12:56 am
>> > There is a thing in many new cars and BMW motorcycles, the CanBus,
>> > which
>> > a serial protocol that various electronic bits and pieces can use to
>> > talk to one another. So the thing about how in BMW cars, turning on the
>> > windshield wipers makes the brakes apply very lightly, just enough to
>> > dry them, can be easily implemented. Unfortunately, things like
>> > headlight modulators, taillight modulators, and LED taillights screw
>> > with the broken-bulb detectors. And the CanBus has had teething
>> > problems
>> > in BMW "hexheads".
>> >
>> > But you still need a way to power all those gizmos...
>>
>> The power is the point.
>>
>> I used to work on luxury cars, and I presently do work with CAN.
>>
>> A few points ...
>>
>> As of several years ago, many vehicles were approaching a 2kW electrical
>> system (maybe they're already there).
> Holy shit!
> Otoh, I can understand that. My BMW has a 750 W alternator to run the
> ABS, extra lights, heated vests, and so forth.
>> The issue with higher voltage is that
>> one can use less copper and transmit the same power because the wire
>> sizing
>> is related to the current rather than the voltage. The upper limit on
>> the
>> voltage is:
>>
>> a)Insulation breakdown.
>>
>> b)Human safety.
>>
>> (a) isn't a concern at all with modern insulations. (b) I think led to
>> the
>> adoption of 48V as the standard. It was as high as they could go without
>> endangering the people who service the vehicles, both professionally and
>> recreationally.
>>
>> As far as CAN ...
>>
>> CAN (and vehicle networks in general have led to two trends).
>>
>> First, when all the electronics can talk to each other, you can have
>> features that you couldn't have otherwise, or at least couldn't have
>> without
>> a lot of extra wire.
>>
>> Second, the tendency is towards "zonal" electronics. If the vehicle horn
>> is
>> closer to the engine controller than the instrument cluster, it makes
>> sense
>> to wire it to the engine controller. Driver presses the horn switch, is
>> sensed by instrument cluster, message is transmitted via CAN to the
>> engine
>> controller, horn relay is closed, etc.
>>
>> Some of the older luxury cars are good example. Due to the complexity of
>> power windows, there were some wiring harnesses going into doors where
>> there
>> were about 50 conductors. CAN can get it down to 4 (power, ground, and
>> two
>> network wires). The fact that the power windows are all controllable
>> from
>> the driver's door can be done via network messages.
> You explained it better than I did. Thanks. :-)
The other element of the equation that makes the "zonal" approach attractive
is that microcontroller-based modules (i.e. electronic black boxes) have
really come down in price relative to wire harnesses. So, if you can do
away with 46 of the wires going into the driver's door and use an electronic
box in the driver's door, this decision only makes sense if that electronic
box is cheap enough.
If the electronic boxes are expensive enough, it is still cheaper to have 50
wires going into the driver's door ...
Posted by Timberwoof on June 8, 2008, 2:04 am
> The other element of the equation that makes the "zonal" approach attractive
> is that microcontroller-based modules (i.e. electronic black boxes) have
> really come down in price relative to wire harnesses. So, if you can do
> away with 46 of the wires going into the driver's door and use an electronic
> box in the driver's door, this decision only makes sense if that electronic
> box is cheap enough.
>
> If the electronic boxes are expensive enough, it is still cheaper to have 50
> wires going into the driver's door ...
... and it becomes a question of a massively parallel "computer" with
dead-stupid 1-bit switching components and one data line for every bit
(a fancy way of saying old-school wiring harness), or a multi-bit
computer with 1-bit serial i/o and each device with its own i/o device
to talk to the data bus.
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com>
faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml
Ten Steps to Fascism: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html
Posted by Who Me? on June 5, 2008, 2:45 pm
> I'm going to ask at my trusty non dealer affiliated neighborhood
> motorcycle parts shop but I'd also like your opinions. I'd like to
> replace the old fashioned dull bulb in the headlight of my 1974 Honda
> XL175 with a 6 volt brighter modern bulb.
Well, 6V and modern bulb don't quite go together but.........
You might do better going to a major auto parts outlet armed with the number
off the original bulb.
They should have a cross-reference book with specs. Look for something with
the same base but higher cp or lumens. As long as you stay with 6V, you
shouldn't need to change anything else.
Good luck. I think you're gonna need it.
PS Might try GE or Sylvania or Chicago Miniature ONLINE for cross-ref
listings.
> a serial protocol that various electronic bits and pieces can use to
> talk to one another. So the thing about how in BMW cars, turning on the
> windshield wipers makes the brakes apply very lightly, just enough to
> dry them, can be easily implemented. Unfortunately, things like
> headlight modulators, taillight modulators, and LED taillights screw
> with the broken-bulb detectors. And the CanBus has had teething problems
> in BMW "hexheads".
> But you still need a way to power all those gizmos...