Posted by Jujitsu Lizard on November 2, 2008, 1:30 pm
> In addition to the crash, of course, even if they hadn't crashed, the
> things
> they were doing were very destructive to the jet engines. �I just don't
> get
> someone who is 31 years old (the captain) allowing the destruction of
> equipment like that.
>Thanks for the technically interesting link, Dave.
Who is this Dave guy? I am The Lizard.
>http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/2005/Pinnacle/exhibits/323843.pdf
>Whoa! Pinnacle takes their jetliners to a specific altitude and causes
>them to flame out, then windmills them to a restart, and has a *break-
>in*
>procedure for engines that indicate they are prone to core lock.
>It seems to me that there would be a better way...
>The term "core lock" was unfamilar to me, I don't remember it being
>used at all when I studied jet engines in the Air Force half a century
>ago.
Thanks for providing the link above. I found it interesting.
I hadn't realized that the dual-shaft arrangement was relatively recent.
With the Pinnacle Airlines thing, I wasn't so fascinated by the restart
failure as what led to the trouble.
I don't think that taking an empty transport jet and yanking it around at
2-3 positive g's really does any structural harm (bad behavior, but maybe
not terrible behavior). I can forgive that. But what amazed me is the
deliberate abuse of the jet engines and overheating them. Those are
expensive pieces of hardware, and they are generally necessary to get you to
an airport. That seems like very reckless behavior directed towards one's
employer.
Posted by Timberwoof on November 2, 2008, 1:56 pm
> wrote:
>
> > In addition to the crash, of course, even if they hadn't crashed,
> > the things they were doing were very destructive to the jet
> > engines. ?I just don't get someone who is 31 years old (the
> > captain) allowing the destruction of equipment like that.
> >
> >Thanks for the technically interesting link, Dave.
>
> Who is this Dave guy? I am The Lizard.
>
> >http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/2005/Pinnacle/exhibits/323843.pdf
> >
> >Whoa! Pinnacle takes their jetliners to a specific altitude and
> >causes them to flame out, then windmills them to a restart, and has
> >a *break- in* procedure for engines that indicate they are prone to
> >core lock.
> >
> >It seems to me that there would be a better way...
Chuck Yeager writes in his autobiography about a test pilot who made a
forced landing at some podunk airport in the middle of no place. It
would have cost tens of thousands of dollars to ship the proper
equipment in by train to get it started again, so Yeager just flew a
Lear jet over there. He parked it in front of the test plane, locked the
brakes, and opened the throttle on the turbine. He figured that since it
was a turbofan, enough of the jet exhaust was fresh air that the test
plane's engine could breathe and light up. So that's what they did ...
and got both planes home safely and without making a fuss.
> >The term "core lock" was unfamilar to me, I don't remember it being
> >used at all when I studied jet engines in the Air Force half a
> >century ago.
>
> Thanks for providing the link above. I found it interesting.
>
> I hadn't realized that the dual-shaft arrangement was relatively
> recent.
Well, it's more recent than the original single-shaft design, but I read
about it when I was in grade school.
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com>
faq: http://www.timberwoof.com/motorcycle/faq.shtml
Ten Steps to Fascism: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html
Posted by . on November 2, 2008, 2:19 pm
te:
> Who is this Dave guy? �I am The Lizard.
Dave lives in Marshall, Michigan and rides a Honda 600 Shadow. He owns
at least two cats and likes to fly airplanes and fantasizes about
skydiving with his cats.
You are Dave.
> I hadn't realized that the dual-shaft arrangement was relatively recent.
Gas turbine technology has come a long way since the centrifugal flow
J33 engine
had a compression ratio of only about 5 or 6 to 1. Axial flow
turbojets from the 1950's were lucky to have a compression ratio of
10:1.
That would provide about 147 psi going into the nozzles before the
combustor cans.
But the improved interstage sealing has made it possible for the
compressor to put
a lot more pressure into the cans, as well as bypass a lot of air
around them to cool the engine.
A while back I was discussing the subject with Bob Nixon,
alt.motorcycle.sportbike's resident technofreak and we figured out
that modern turbofan compressors must be putting several hundred
pounds of pressure to the
combustor cans and providing a lot of cooling air to the engine.
Nixon rides with airline pilots. You should post your aviation
comments to alt.motorcycle.sportbike
If that aircooled turbine engine suddenly stops turning, the hot
section loses cooling, and the tight clearances that improved engine
efficiency work against you and you get core lock.
> I don't think that taking an empty transport jet and yanking it around at
> 2-3 positive g's really does any structural harm (bad behavior, but maybe
> not terrible behavior). �I can forgive that. �But what amazed me is the
> deliberate abuse of the jet engines and overheating them. �Those are
> expensive pieces of hardware, and they are generally necessary to get you to
> an airport. �That seems like very reckless behavior directed towards one's
> employer.
Well, it looks to me like they tried to zoom climb to FL410, but
didn't know how to
do it correctly. They needed to be flying close to Mach 1 and then
pull up to convert speed into altitude.
Turbine compressors don't like sudden changes in AOA, they stall. That
might have caused the flame out...
Posted by Bob Myers on November 2, 2008, 3:13 pm
> Who is this Dave guy? I am The Lizard.
Sigh...y'know, that was cute, MAYBE, the first time.
Bob M.
Posted by Jujitsu Lizard on November 2, 2008, 4:07 pm
>> Who is this Dave guy? I am The Lizard.
> Sigh...y'know, that was cute, MAYBE, the first time.
> Bob M.
Bob,
Seriously, my e-mail address is jujitsu.lizard@gmail.com. Now, would Google
allow me to obtain that e-mail address if I wasn't a real lizard with some
training in Jujitsu? Would they? That is proof.
Furthermore, I don't have a picture of me handy, but this is my wife:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Plumed.basilisk.750pix.jpg
I remember the day we discussed sending her picture into Wikipedia. I took
several photos and we chose the best one.
I think that is proof enough.
The Lizard
> things
> they were doing were very destructive to the jet engines. �I just don't
> get
> someone who is 31 years old (the captain) allowing the destruction of
> equipment like that.
>Thanks for the technically interesting link, Dave.