fuel injection GREENIE! help!

 know how hard it is to google for acronyms?

i have a lot of questions
(and was looking for some abuse),

so i figured i would post here and allow myself to get schooled (/
shredded) nice and quick:


what's a SERT? SEST? are these the computers mechanics use in lieu of,
say, a desktop pc?

i understand a few companies make fuel paks (v&h, power commander,
thundermax, screamin eagle)... this is basically a computer that
controls gas flow in fuel injection systems, the way a carb would,
correct?

is it an add-on component?  wouldn't all FI bikes require a computer
to make that calculation, or does a computer simply help it happen? i
always thought FI was controlled by a computer, and it seems like a
fuel pak either overrides the FI's way of handling fuel flow or it
replaces it

a dyno is like a treadmill that you'd mount your bike to in order to
have engine output measured, especially output vs actual realization,
correct?

since a fuel pak is a computer, its program can be altered to take
advantage of the specifics of your system - altering it can either be
"downloading" a new "map" or ...this is the confusing part...some fuel
paks can actually figure out the programs themselves?  (why does a
download cost $150 at a $tealer$hip? what do they do?)

are those ones with o2 sensors?

somewhere in there, a dyno test is required (?) in order to either
double check the results or to calculate them in the first place?  or
is the (expensive? or just annoying?) dyno test required when the
intake/engine/exhaust pipes/slips combination isn't available?

some fuel paks are "better" than others -- other than the possibility
of not requiring a diagnostic / examination, what qualities are there
to judge the quality of the unit?  is it like with GPS devices, how
some are more accurate than others, while some can hold more maps than
others?  (a stretch of an analogy, but hopefully you follow?)


what is a "reflash" then? is it the removal of a map / program run by
the fuel pak, done so that a new one can be loaded or calculated?


some FI controllers have USB connections, so you can update the unit
itself and so that you can change the way the bike performs on your
own, yes? does that mean that with a laptop and a lot of road, i could
tweak my performance myself, on the fly (not literally, but pulling
over every few minutes to meddle)?

do other parts of the bike come with USB connections? could an alarm
system be reprogrammed by an end user?

how many "computers" are there on a bike? security, FI, ABS,
ignition?, lights ...? are any of them "accessible" to someone with a
little know-how on the computing side?

(not talking about myself)

and i understand on some bikes, with some dealers, messing around with
this stuff could void the warranty but some others recommend it? i
have to be missing something (if not missing everything entirely)


thanks,


-c

 

No, these are interface 'dongles' that you use *with*
a PC.

Both of these boxes will talk to the H-D Delphi
engine management computer.  The SEST (which
I own) will record about 20min of data (without
having to be connected to the host PC) and then
will dump the data to the PC.  You can then see
the recorded parameters in graphical format... it's
very cool.  The V-Twin Forum has a decent
tutorial on using the SEST:

http://www.v-twinforum.com/forums/efi-discussion/123908-sest-what.html

After you use the SERT/SEST, it is not on the
bike... you use it to modify the Delphi maps,
then put it in a drawer.


These boxes stay on the bike.

They bolt onto the computer and allow you modify
what the computer does.  You may have to lose your
O2 sensors (might not be a bad thing), since the
controller will have to run open loop or get offended
when someone else messes with what it's doing.


You're getting the picture... the PowerCommander modifies
what the Delphi unit is doing... the SEST/SERT modifies
what the Delphi is trying to do.  With both, you're still just
tweaking on the base map (what your Harley Tax (Stage 1)
paid for).

Check out this link:

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/hd2007HD_wbo2_upgrade.htm

... as well as Daytona Twin Tech and ThunderMax sites.


Basically, yes... a loaded treadmill.


A 'fuel pak' may not be a computer... it might
just be something that lengthens the FI pulses.


The cute little cartridge is 'used up' by flashing it in.
Giant frickin' scam.


Anything with O2 sensors is running (at least part
of the time) in 'closed loop'.  This allows tighter
tuning of fuel-air, etc... necessary for the new EPA
regulations.  The computer watches the ratio and
attempts to adjust it, within its capture range.

There are the expensive boxes with their own
wide-band sensors... they can compensate for
large excursions (supposedly) from the map,
and the hi-temp sensors can be mounted closer to the
cylinder so that there is less interference from the
reverse wave's oxygen (you don't have to run
as much back pressure).  See Daytona Twin Tech.


The SEST can be used in record mode for actual
run recording, like a drag-racing computer.  That's
why I bought it.  It was damn expensive, and you have
to buy the cables separately (another giant scam).
Once you use the dongle to flash your bike, it's
'wedded' to it... it can't be used to flash any other
bike, since it's recorded your serial number or
whatever.  *Another* giant scam.

One thing I noticed... the cable from USB to
the dongle is a standard serial adapter.. you could
'snoop' the serial talk between dongle and cable
and decode what's going on for things like putting
it into record mode without the computer there,
or more nefarious reverse-engineering.


What you're buying, really, is the dude.  Find a dude
you like, and see what he's used to using.  Either that,
or start the long self-education slog (I still haven't flashed
anything into my bike).


I think you're referring to changing the base map, a la
'stage 1'.  'Fuel paks' don't do any reflashing, they just
lenghten the injector pulses, IIRC.


That's the idea behind the SEST.  With the SERT, you've
really got to have a dyno next to the computer... with the
SEST, you can do runs, download them, and play with
them at your leisure.  The software is *very* cool for
the SEST ('Super Tuner').  Beware that the Super Tuner
software won't work through a hub... another attempt
to get proprietary on your ass.  It's also another package
that comes broken, probably on purpose.... you have
to update it so it will work, and it reflashes the dongle.


There's no USB on a Harley... not yet, anyway.  The SEST
has a serial port... the USB cable is a USB/serial dongle.

My Martin acoustic guitar (DC Aura) has a USB port,
though.  Supposedly you can download new microphone
simulations.


More than a little... how low do you go?
Do any assembly?  Know what JTAG is?
You have a lot of fat-pipe-drinking to do
before you get there, I can tell you that.
__
Steve
.

 On Aug 12, 10:31 pm, "Stephen Cowell"

so it's "Screamin Eagle Race Tuner" or  +"Super" ... i didn't realize
it was HD branded, that explains a lot


what do you mean by losing the o2 sensors?



http://www.hdtalking.com/diagnostics_and_fuel_injection_related/1540-efi_tu=
ner_comparisons.html

was a great article! i found it after figuring out what "SERT" stood
for (every try googling acronyms? yuck)



so based on your nightrider link, it would seem the SERT is the way to
go if i were planning on doing a big bore kit

(side question: worth it? can a 1584cc engine pull that 800lb bike, 2-
up? would the 1800cc engine simply be more problems, or if it's done
by the $tealer$hip is it mostly alright? main issue is whether it'll
open up the bike to more problems or if it will actually help it scoot
around without behaving like a dead elephant)



if "flash" refers to the type of memory, as put by datesfat above,
it's really $150 for nothing, isn't it? if there is no risk of voiding
the warranty, i'd rather see about cloning the flash memory of a bike
with the same alterations as mine, then using that...

no?




will definitely read up


the tuner is $500, then the cables ... hmm, yeah, that's a real wad to
spend, especially if you aren't going too far out on your own and can
just find a map pre-made, right?



cool beans


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Test_Action_Group

so...just to be perfectly honest, i was asking because the internet
(something i can use) would let me take advantage of any of those
computerized systems (something i can't use)....if there were a
computer controlling X, i could find some way to bust into it on the
web, and then do that

of all the D-I-Y mods i'd like to do, drinking the fat pipe was not
near the top =P

thanks for your great post of info, chief

-c

 
i just read up on the thundermax controller ... it's supposed to be
able to "learn" on its own, it should be able to adjust itself ... it
requires o2 sensors, and i figure it's able to measure the whole
system (or at least all of it minus the engine load, right?) and
compensate

is this an alternative to all the hassle of the below? dyno runs, SEST
which lets you tune without a dyno, or loading in the wild-goose-chase
files into the ECM for $150 a pop?







i ride a 805cc metric cruiser and my brother's 1200cc sporster will
absolutely *destroy* me whenever we race

i'd make my decision on whether to upgrade the engine or not on where
the stock RK falls along the performance spectrum ... doesn't need to
beat a sportster (and i doubt it could) but if it isn't even close
then i'll pony up for ponies

...unless a thundermax or SEST could give good low-end acceleration



now i get it



the 'narrow-band' sensors are the cheap "helper" units for the FI and
require cheatsheets to really work...

the wide-band ones are as you describe ...

one of those webpages you rec'd said that for anything over 100ci, you
*need* a wide-band sensor because there's just too much detail along
the power curves for the little boxes to handle

i don't know if 96ci means it's worth leaning toward the better module

 
Usually this is the type of thing you get along with some component
change/s.  Add a particular pipe and all the dyno work has been done
for that pipe, so you can just change the fuel map in your bike to
what they found works best.  Without it you could easily spend $150 on
a dyno trying to get your bike to run as well.  I'm sure there are
people that could figure out how to reprogram your controller, but if
they don't know what they are doing it could end up costing a lot more
than $150.