Posted by Schmoe on April 30, 2011, 5:03 pm
Bought the bike last summer, been running great, time for an oil change.
All's well until it's time to pull the crankcase oil drain bolt. Sucker's on
there so tight the bolt strips. Tried several wrenches and then a vice
grips. Metal starts to come off. It's not rusty just jammed in there so
tight there's no movement. I drained what appeared to be most of the oil
from the oil tank drain bolt. How much more oil sits in the crankcase pan?
Did I get most of it out? I did change the filter too.
Why do people overtighten? I hate that! :)
Any ideas on how to get the crankcase drain bolt out (need to replace it of
course).
Also, is there a trick to getting the oil screen hose off the screen
housing? The screen housing is also where the oil tank drain bolt is.
Thanks
Posted by Volker Bartheld on May 1, 2011, 4:39 am
Hi!
On Sat, 30 Apr 2011 17:03:58 -0400, Schmoe wrote:
> Bought the bike last summer, been running great, time for an oil change.
> All's well until it's time to pull the crankcase oil drain bolt.
> Sucker's on there so tight the bolt strips. Tried several wrenches and
> then a vice grips. Metal starts to come off. It's not rusty just jammed
> in there so tight there's no movement.
There might be a reason why the bolt is so tight. I suspect that the
original owner (you didn't touch the bolt since then, did you?) probably
stripped (or cross-threaded) the threads in the case (I tend to call this
"wrenchasthenic" according to "legasthenic" when it comes to
reading/writing) and he glued the bolt in with Loctite 270 or worse
because he was unaware (or ignorant) of time-sert thread repair kits.
Or he probably didn't use a washer at all and wanted to get the drain bolt
tight by itself.
> I drained what appeared to be most of the oil from the oil tank drain
> bolt. How much more oil sits in the crankcase pan?
By extrapolating from my 2001 YZ426F, I'd say: Quite a lot - including
dirt/abrasion from the clutch friction/pressure plates (aluminum).
Nevertheless you should try to get the bolt out.
> Any ideas on how to get the crankcase drain bolt out (need to replace it
> of course).
Probably, you will need to replace more than that.
Is the surface of the bolt still somehow usable, probably with some kind of
surface-drive bit (that doesn't round off the edges too much)? You could
also try hammering on a smaller size nut after grinding the bolt's edges a
bit. I'd try heating up the engine case locally with a hot air gun (don't
worry, well above 100°C - boiling point for water - is still a safe
temperature), give the bolt a few whacks with an alloy hammer (don't
overdo, you don't wanna ruin the engine case) and try again. Sometimes, it
helps trying to turn in the _wrong_ direction first (to break the bolt
loose) and then go back from there.
If the bolt is already 100% ruined, you can try to weld a dot (or better: a
threaded rod or hex socket) onto it. Of course, thermal expansion works
against you in that case (bolt expands more than the surrounding aluminum
because it gets hotter in the progress of welding etc.), but thermal
stress might help to break the corrosion/other obstacles in the threads.
Another thing might be drilling a hole through the bolt (buy a new bolt to
find out the clearance towards the outer threads first), cut smaller
threads in there (probably M6 will work or even M8 - use thick grease to
catch metal chips) and glue a hex bolt in there (of course left handed
threads would be ideal - but who has the right tools for a job like
that?). You might be able to get the bolt out with that "adapter".
There are also special tools (we crauts call it "Linksausdreher"), hardened
bits that basically look like left handed thread cutters with a ridiculous
pitch - but if you break one of those, you're in big trouble and might be
facing a $$$ wire/spark erosion job. I tend not to use those because of
the aforementioned risk.
Last option would be to drill out the entire bolt (increasing sizes of
drills) until there's just a tiny little metal spiral left in the outer
threads. You can then clear/clean the threads with a scriber or the
matching die and flush the case with petroleum/pressurized air to get the
remaining aliens out.
This could involve removing the entire engine, turning it upside down and
mounting it in some kind of device and using a drill stand, since position
(centering) of the drill and perpendicular movement is crucial. The drain
bolt can be pretty long, so it takes a lot of patience in order not to
destroy the outer (softer) threads.
> Also, is there a trick to getting the oil screen hose off the screen
> housing? The screen housing is also where the oil tank drain bolt is.
If the design is similar to that of my YZ426 (location of the oil screen
hose on the bottom of the front frame tube/oil reservoir that goes up to
the steering stem), the torque is just way too tight right out of the
factory. I removed the pipe leading to the engine from there, used a bench
vise and high quality box wrenches/long sockets and plenty of elbow
grease.
Good luck! Stripped bolts and ruineds threads are always a big PITA and can
definitely ruin your day...
Volker
--
@: I N F O at B A R T H E L D dot N E T
3W: www.bartheld.net
Posted by Dean H on May 1, 2011, 7:18 am
On May 1, 4:39 am, Volker Bartheld wrote:
> There are also special tools (we crauts call it "Linksausdreher"), hardened
> bits that basically look like left handed thread cutters with a ridiculous
> pitch
We call them screw extractors or EZ-Outs.
>- but if you break one of those, you're in big trouble and might be
> facing a $$$ wire/spark erosion job. I tend not to use those because of
> the aforementioned risk.
Me too. But hold that thought.
> Last option would be to drill out the entire bolt (increasing sizes of
> drills) until there's just a tiny little metal spiral left in the outer
> threads. You can then clear/clean the threads with a scriber or the
> matching die and flush the case with petroleum/pressurized air to get the
> remaining aliens out.
> This could involve removing the entire engine, turning it upside down and
> mounting it in some kind of device and using a drill stand, since position
> (centering) of the drill and perpendicular movement is crucial. The drain
> bolt can be pretty long, so it takes a lot of patience in order not to
> destroy the outer (softer) threads.
Now combine the two ideas. Find yourself some left handed drill bits
on the interweb. Start with a medium small bit and as precisely as is
practical drill out the center. Don't go too deep. Having a new plug
handy would also be good for judging depth =:-O Step up to the
next bit, and keep working your way up through a few drill sizes to
your final size for a retap or a helicoil/timesert. The drilling
inroduces a lot of heat that helps. And the left hand action keeps
some torque in the bolt in case she decides to come loose, which is
usually what happens. If it doesn't just come right out at the end,
you can either collapse the last bit of threads out of there or just
overdrill for the helicoil/timesert.
At least it's in the perfect spot to simply flush it with some oil
from above when you are done.
HTH
dean
Posted by Schmoe on May 1, 2011, 9:36 am
> Hi!
> On Sat, 30 Apr 2011 17:03:58 -0400, Schmoe wrote:
>> Bought the bike last summer, been running great, time for an oil change.
>> All's well until it's time to pull the crankcase oil drain bolt.
>> Sucker's on there so tight the bolt strips. Tried several wrenches and
>> then a vice grips. Metal starts to come off. It's not rusty just jammed
>> in there so tight there's no movement.
> There might be a reason why the bolt is so tight. I suspect that the
> original owner (you didn't touch the bolt since then, did you?) probably
> stripped (or cross-threaded) the threads in the case (I tend to call this
> "wrenchasthenic" according to "legasthenic" when it comes to
> reading/writing) and he glued the bolt in with Loctite 270 or worse
> because he was unaware (or ignorant) of time-sert thread repair kits.
> Or he probably didn't use a washer at all and wanted to get the drain bolt
> tight by itself.
>> I drained what appeared to be most of the oil from the oil tank drain
>> bolt. How much more oil sits in the crankcase pan?
> By extrapolating from my 2001 YZ426F, I'd say: Quite a lot - including
> dirt/abrasion from the clutch friction/pressure plates (aluminum).
> Nevertheless you should try to get the bolt out.
>> Any ideas on how to get the crankcase drain bolt out (need to replace it
>> of course).
> Probably, you will need to replace more than that.
> Is the surface of the bolt still somehow usable, probably with some kind
> of
> surface-drive bit (that doesn't round off the edges too much)? You could
> also try hammering on a smaller size nut after grinding the bolt's edges a
> bit. I'd try heating up the engine case locally with a hot air gun (don't
> worry, well above 100°C - boiling point for water - is still a safe
> temperature), give the bolt a few whacks with an alloy hammer (don't
> overdo, you don't wanna ruin the engine case) and try again. Sometimes, it
> helps trying to turn in the _wrong_ direction first (to break the bolt
> loose) and then go back from there.
> If the bolt is already 100% ruined, you can try to weld a dot (or better:
> a
> threaded rod or hex socket) onto it. Of course, thermal expansion works
> against you in that case (bolt expands more than the surrounding aluminum
> because it gets hotter in the progress of welding etc.), but thermal
> stress might help to break the corrosion/other obstacles in the threads.
> Another thing might be drilling a hole through the bolt (buy a new bolt to
> find out the clearance towards the outer threads first), cut smaller
> threads in there (probably M6 will work or even M8 - use thick grease to
> catch metal chips) and glue a hex bolt in there (of course left handed
> threads would be ideal - but who has the right tools for a job like
> that?). You might be able to get the bolt out with that "adapter".
> There are also special tools (we crauts call it "Linksausdreher"),
> hardened
> bits that basically look like left handed thread cutters with a ridiculous
> pitch - but if you break one of those, you're in big trouble and might be
> facing a $$$ wire/spark erosion job. I tend not to use those because of
> the aforementioned risk.
> Last option would be to drill out the entire bolt (increasing sizes of
> drills) until there's just a tiny little metal spiral left in the outer
> threads. You can then clear/clean the threads with a scriber or the
> matching die and flush the case with petroleum/pressurized air to get the
> remaining aliens out.
> This could involve removing the entire engine, turning it upside down and
> mounting it in some kind of device and using a drill stand, since position
> (centering) of the drill and perpendicular movement is crucial. The drain
> bolt can be pretty long, so it takes a lot of patience in order not to
> destroy the outer (softer) threads.
>> Also, is there a trick to getting the oil screen hose off the screen
>> housing? The screen housing is also where the oil tank drain bolt is.
> If the design is similar to that of my YZ426 (location of the oil screen
> hose on the bottom of the front frame tube/oil reservoir that goes up to
> the steering stem), the torque is just way too tight right out of the
> factory. I removed the pipe leading to the engine from there, used a bench
> vise and high quality box wrenches/long sockets and plenty of elbow
> grease.
> Good luck! Stripped bolts and ruineds threads are always a big PITA and
> can
> definitely ruin your day...
I'll answer both here, thanks Volker & Dean for the responses. The nut at
this point is definitely looking roundish, metal has been removed. Not sure
how much was me or the previous owner(s). Problem with the drill out re-tap
idea is it will require engine removal as the frame is horizontal to the
bolt. You can get a wrench in but not a socket which is what I would have
originally used if accessible.
Bike needs new rubber and was going to bring the wheels up to a good indie
shop but now with this and your responses, maybe I'll just bring the bike in
and see if he has a magic potion to remove it. I agree that it's got to get
done 1 way or another. I haven't put fresh oil in yet thinking that it would
be a waste once fixing the crankcase bolt issue so I guess the bike will go
to the shop.
Thanks for the responses. Wish there was an solution but w/o frontal access
to the bolt, I agree there isn't much I can do. If indeed the engine needs
to be pulled to get this done, that would SUCK!
Posted by Dean H on May 1, 2011, 11:05 am
Schmoe is feeling low...
> Thanks for the responses. Wish there was an solution but w/o frontal access
> to the bolt, I agree there isn't much I can do. If indeed the engine needs
> to be pulled to get this done, that would SUCK
From the side you can try the old trick of using a chisel and a hammer
to apply, um... tangential force, I guess you could call it. Try to
catch the edge with the chisel and spin the bolt. Don't smash the
thing, but just hit it like an impact wrench would. Be patient. Beer
might help. Some music with a good beat... maybe a cheerleader...
http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/freecommenttags/funny_pictures/264.jpg
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> All's well until it's time to pull the crankcase oil drain bolt.
> Sucker's on there so tight the bolt strips. Tried several wrenches and
> then a vice grips. Metal starts to come off. It's not rusty just jammed
> in there so tight there's no movement.