T3 wrote:
> http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article3573
>
> .."Speaking to private team managers at Mid-Ohio last Saturday evening,
> DMG President Roger Edmondson said that the manufacturers have now
> changed their positions again and are demanding that existing 2008 AMA
> Superbike rules be run in 2009 and beyond. Edmondson characterized the
> process of trying to work with manufacturers as being "a waste of time"
> that could have been better spent finalizing other details for 2009,
> including a three-year HD TV deal with five hours of programming from
> each race weekend.
Translation: "Hey, we don't even have a TV deal yet! Now who can we
blame that on? Hmm..."
> Adoption of the original DMG proposal could have addressed recent
> demands from manufacturers that rules be made by a third party instead
> of DMG: The original proposal committed to FIM World Superbike rules for
> the premier class and based rules for the second 1000cc class on FIM
> Superstock rules.
>
> DMG and Edmondson have now come under fire from certain elements of the
> media, for changing DMG's plans, with no mention of the fact that the
> changes were made based on input from the manufacturers, and with no
> mention that the input from manufacturers has changed at least twice."
>
> Like I said last week, the negotiation period, if there ever really was
> one, is pretty much over, though it will be interesting to see which of
> the OEM's answer roll call later this month and if what I've heard is
> accurate, it's gonna surprise a few folks...
And you're going to keep us waiting? RRW certainly suggests it's Honda
and Suzuki that are taking a pass, or at least leading the way on the
rules move. Harris and Blank were the guys who bailed on FIM rules once
they had been agreed to by DMG about a month ago, before the 7/10
meeting RRW references in their recent post.
Anyway, this business has reached an interesting stage, as has RRW's
reporting of it, considering Johnny U-know-who is right in the middle of
all of it. He's been the guy, or maybe one of the guys, trying to bring
the parties together and to get this settled for more than a month, and
seems to have thought he got this done with the use of FIM WSB rules,
and then it appeared proposed '09 AMA rules were to be the deal. What I
find a little hard to believe is that they got DMG to accept not only
the FIM definition, but also that they automatically comply with any
changes in those rules - the rulebook would, assumedly, just reference
the FIM rulebook.
He also has been indicating that the FIM and the MSMA had pretty much
settled on rules for dumbing down WSBs in 2011, but that runs contrary
to what Flammini said earlier this week in the qualifying procedure
announcement - he doesn't expect the rules will change. The source on
the other side is FIM Prez Ippolito, who has been making a lot of noise
about reestablishing some of the FIM's power over racing (and now about
the AMA selling off all control over racing here), and may have been
engaging in wishful thinking. And what authority does the MSMA have
since they withdrew from the SBK Commission in 2003 over the 2004 rules
changes? What Ippolito apparently wants are uniform SB rules with fewer
allowable mods (and managed by the FIM, of course), but FGSport doesn't
seem to be playing along. Shocker.
Anyway, what's with 2008 rules? No changes to deal with, of course, and
some promoters/tracks have been suggesting they should put off any
changes for another year. They also keep anyone with a 1200cc twin out
of SB, which is the kicker. Noting that RRW's articles a few days ago on
the individual team reactions to the new regime drew a stark difference
between the Japanese and Ducati, there may be an effort to freeze Ducati
out of SB. The other victim of note would be Buell, but they're still
eligible for DSB, as is Ducati, and those two might just have the best
bikes for it. So is this part of a FSB-DSB battle? Who's really driving it?
But 2008 rules means authority is still in the hands of DMG, and I can't
imagine the OEMs want that. So maybe the OEMs are just jerking DMG
around and have already planned their exit strategy. (Another thing is
that the Japanese OEMs are hardly a monolithic block, and infighting may
have brought on some changes.) JU has largely been maintaining RRW
editorial silence on most matters involved for a long time, really from
the beginning, and now suddenly there is s flurry of activity. My
impression is that he's gotten frustrated with the way this has gone
after working very hard and perhaps coming very close to getting this
settled and saving racing from a CART/IRL fate. But he may well be using
his website to effect the process a bit, who knows. The big question now
is, is it really all over now? And when will we know what that means?
Looking at the DMG presentation RRW posted up, there's some interesting
tidbits there, like the licensing structure and that Miller isn't listed
among the tracks but New Jersey is, which suggests DMG has bailed on the
world events - no 2nd-fiddle for these boys. Shit, at minimum they
should at least let FSB and ASB run there, and leave DSB at home...
On another aspect of this busines, I found this comment by Millennium
KWS Suzuki"s Spalding after the small teams meeting revealing and a bit
amusing: "We got a taste of what some of the things they’re going to do
on a marketing point of view, a promotional point of view. We got an
idea of how they’re going to look at private teams, how they’re going to
view us. As far as really solid information that I can take to sponsors
or build upon for next year, there really wasn’t a lot there. That’s
what we were hoping to get. We were hoping to get the meaning of life.
We were hoping to get the answers. It just wasn’t there. They just don’t
know yet. It’s so late in the game, and there’s so much work left to do.
There wasn’t a lot of solid information given, because I don’t think a
lot of solid information exists. He said we will get you guys the
information that we know you need as soon as we have it, and that we’re
working real hard to get it all done but we don’t have it all done now.
We have a lot of stuff we’re working on."
So what the hell have these guys been doing anyway? Practicing red flag
procedures? Ice chest cleanup??
> Btw, 5 hours HD every race? Now we're talkin'!!!
Yeah, an hour for each of the two DSB races, and the other three for
MOTO-CraP...
> T3 slips on his pom-poms: and says' 3rd post to Mark, time to let it rest..
>> Mark N said:
>
>>> Whether or not they have stated a class minimum participation, the way
>>> that they have structured the class pretty much guarantees that grid
>>> size would be an issue. I certainly expect that they'll drop it
>>> entirely if there is anything approaching a factory boycott. Really
>>> their fault, which suggests it's the outcome that they've been seeking
>>> all along.
>>
>> I agree they don't see factory racing as something they can sell
>> outside the industry, and if you look at it realistically for a minute
>> you might see their point, at least I can.
>
> I think pretty much all you see is what they say, or what you view as
> supporting their direction...
There's no doubt I get their side of the story at a much higher volume
than others and I agree with SOME of their proposals, however, SOME I
do not, though unlike you I will make any decision or judgement using
what I know about racing, not what some shill writes..
>
> > As far as a boycott goes, I don't
>> believe they'll be one, sure, I fully expect Honda to not to race next
>> year, but beyond them it is unknown (at present) who else may follow
>> their lead, but let's look at some of the motivations involved.
>>
>> Honda, in my opinion is not only driving, but has driven the collapse
>> of SB racing here, and it began when they stopped racing the factory
>> bikes, became suspiciously apparent when Blank quit the board 1 1/2
>> years ago
>
> Oh, come on, Tom, that's just bizarre - Honda decides to lead the
> collapse of SB, so to do that they stop buying the HRC stuff and build
> bikes themselves instead, and then by quitting an AMA board, and then by
> leading the fight to save true SBs??
They with tacit approval from the old Proracing sought to cut corners
and save a few bucks by building their own SB's like they did in FX, to
say it hasn't worked out so well is an understatement, not only for
them, but for SB racing here in general. Oh yeah, without any doubt
they shoulder a part of the collapse and by collapse I mean the last
few years of total and absolute Yosh dominance. You may think what your
seeing is real racing, I know better. It's really only a mildly
entertaining exhibition of Suzuki's big Gixxr and little else..
>> and now they are pushing the MIC thing, but Honda is in a little
>> different position than the others with their Red Riders Club
>> contribution'$..
>
> You need to exert a bit more control over that acid-soaked imagination
> of yours...
Why, because I know what I'm talkin' about, because I have a good idea
where the money comes from, or because, when it comes to this I don't
believe very much of what I read?
>
>> Yam, just invested a boatload of buck$ at Laguna and is most likely the
>> one to not follow Big Red's lead, if for no other reason, just for
>> spite..
>
> But DMG has apparently pulled out of the Laguna GP weekend, and Yamaha
> will join up anyway - just out of spite??
They've invested money, they'll prolly hang around..
>
>> Kaw, seeking market share and will most likely go where the exposure is..
>
> They like everyone else, will go where they think they can best
> accomplish what they want to accomplish. If that's to compete directly
> with their sales floor competition in a balanced contest, and to race
> where they can derive machine development, then it may not just be where
> others might think the money and fans lie down the road.
Development again huh? Hacking and Hayden are driving the development
of the ZX-10, is that what you're going with? Wow, talk about acid!
>
>> Suz, too well positioned and too much to walk away from..
>
> If there is no SB class, that makes no sense at all - what do they get
> out of racing on a factory level in ASB and DSB? Particularly if the
> other Japanese OEMs don't show?
What are they getting out of SB racing right now? Dude, when you win
races by time-zones any argument of no-shows comes off weak, as one
could easily argue they're not here now!
>
>>> If they walk away, I really doubt it'll be without a fight. Doing that,
>>> I see only three possibilities:
>>> 1) They are done racing, at least at the factory team level.
>>
>> I hope not, but it will be their decision if they do and one I strongly
>> believe any that do will, sooner, rather than later, come to regret..
>
> Probably, and I doubt they will do it.
We'll see..
>
>>> 2) They and the other factories think this deal will crumble without
>>> them, so DMG will be back this time next year ready to really deal.
>>
>> Possibly if the economy continues to tank, but otherwise don't count on it..
>
> Not likely, but it could happen if this deal really flops, which I think
> it has a huge potential to do, if the series has no factory teams and no
> true superbikes.
Again, I disagree..
> I mean, why would people show, except out of morbid
> curiosity? But I suspect that DMG will accept a trough for a period, as
> long as they have no competition limiting their future ability to grow.
I always thought the first couple of years were going to be shakey and
I have seen nothing to alter that view, if the Jap OEM's go, so be it
and let's move on, it's for sure not the end of the world, or for that
matter, racing..
>
>>> 3) They are going racing elsewhere, which surely means MIC-led series
>>> with the other factories.
>>
>> The west coast Jap racing league? Pipe dream at best..
>
> The fear in your words is palpable...
Hehheh, I fear a few things, but I gotta tell ya, a west coast Jap
racing league ain't one of them..
>
>>> Seems like you're talking to people who are a bit behind on this deal -
>>> the GSX-R750 is no longer on the list:
>>> http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article3334
>>
>> Actually, I heard it's still on the table, of course I'd imagine that
>> will depend on who exactly doesn't answer roll call..
>
> C'mon, Tom, that is a total fabrication. Maybe not yours, but I can't
> imagine that a matter of any discussion right now is whether or not the
> GSX-R750 is allowed in DSB, that's just stupid. And the only way that
> they could put it back in would be if only Suzuki showed among the
> Japanese, and I just can't see that happening.
Take it, or leave it, it's just what I heard..
>
>>> And note this: "All machines eligible for participation in Daytona
>>> Superbike must be approved by AMA Pro Racing and homologated by the
>>> manufacturer or sanctioning body." Repeat, "or sanctioning body", which
>>> allows DMG to sanction Japanese bikes without OEM involvement.
>>
>> Keeping their options open?
>
> No, recognizing that a Japanese OEM boycott of the series would kill
> them if no Japanese bikes run in the series. Then it's just MOTO-ST all
> over.
So you say, by the way, over and over too, hmmm..
>
>>> And now the rules are quite specific about what can be changed and what
>>> can't, which means things done to increase torque on the smaller
>>> machines would be much more limited. It strikes me that the evolving
>>> rules have a bit of an anti-factory (Japanese-style) bent, eh?
>>
>> I seriously doubt any 600 will have the juice the H-D, Aprilia, KTM's
>> or DUC's will have and all the portable dynojet's on the planet won't
>> help, so yes, at face value they look to be at a disadvantage, though a
>> 750 not so much..
>
> The assumption is that lighter weight and sharper handling would balance
> against the greater power, and, if the factories play even through
> supported teams, superior riders. Not sure how the weight thing will get
> worked out - ballast is limited to 25 lbs and parts are all homologated,
> but to what extent can weight be added through parts? But the 750 only
> weighs about 5 lbs more than the 600, so can add only so much more peak
> power, and I'm not sure how much additional torque it has. No, I think
> the big edge is with twins.
>
>>> At some point I'd like to know where the ASB thing came from in the
>>> first place. I know the Yamaha request resulted in the DSB-like watered
>>> down Literbike proposal, but how that turned into FIM SStock I can't
>>> quite figure. I mean, it's not likely the Japanese factories, given
>>> that they'd already conceded SStock in the current lineup. My belief
>>> has been that it's just been a DMG device to isolate the factories in
>>> the superbike class.
>>
>> I agree that FSB is only for factory supported bikes, though I disagree
>> they want, or feel the need to isolate them there,
>
> And your disagreement is based on what? You honestly don't think DMG
> wants FSB to just be about the factories, to have small grids, to make
> in an exhibition, to ultimately fail?
Fail and succeed are probably not the best words here, I believe DMG
doesn't feel they can sell FSB outside of the industry, but if the
OEM's want to fully support the class by ensuring a full grid they'd be
more than happy to run it, but they won't, will they?
>
>>> I mean, DMG didn't want literbikes at the start, so why would they
>>> keep them in the show if the factories bail and FSB disappears? Might
>>> it have been an offering to Ducati?
>>
>> And Harley, Aprilia, KTM, BMW and whoever else that may come up with a
>> big inch racing twin..
>
> The immediate play is KTM, since Aprilia and BMW have gone the four
> route. And I doubt that any will show up in ASB anyway. Harley? You have
> to be kidding.
Harley=Buell25r=damn good bike!
>
>>> If DMG lets them run the "unobtainium" 1098R there, it will become
>>> obvious. There is no production or import number homologation
>>> requirement stated in the rules as released.
>>
>> Become obvious?
>
> If DMG allows a $50k SB homologation special into ASB, it will be
> obvious that this was a concession to get Ducati on their side on this
> whole deal.
Again, become obvious? I saw that one commin' before the speedweek
annoucement..
>
>>> I don't buy this at all. Jordan has proven that you can build a private
>>> SB that is very competitive. If the real justification for all the pain
>>> that DMG is putting everyone through is that they know how to grow the
>>> sport and make money for everyone, then a privately-built SB should be
>>> no huge problem, particularly as the rules are dumbed-down. I'd guess
>>> for $300,000 you could build a damned good bike, and that seems like
>>> chump change for a successful series with big crowds, popular
>>> television coverage and resulting sponsorsh
>>
>> Ok, stop right there for a minute and let's look at Jordan. MJ is a
>> one-off deal if there ever was one, first, he's has more money than he
>> knows what to do with,
>
> And is he spending it all on his race team? I doubt it.
So do I and that's not to say his team doesn't cost a fortune, he just
makes sooo much money!
>
> > secondly, has he even been on a box? (once, I
>> think)
>
> Wrong - Yates was on the box three times last year, was 4th seven more
> times, and finished 4th in points.
Whoopedo! He could've saved himself a few million and just went out an
bought a few trophy's!
>
>> And finally if you think you can build a competitive FSB for $300k I
>> got some lakefront land down here just for you! Jeeze Mark, some of
>> those trik front ends cost around 200k, an ECU/TC another $100K by the
>> time you find someone to dial it in and don't forget yo have to find
>> someone(s) that has a clue on how to put a blueprinted engine that
>> cost's at least $50K together. Oh yeah and how many teams have just one
>> bike? Superbike racing in this country is/are exclusive to OEM's and
>> always have been, and please don't go off on me just for stating what I
>> believe is obvious..
>
> I think you can build a fairly competitive bike for $300k, and what I
> mean is something that is closer to the factory SBs than the usual SS
> machines. Not gonna win races, but that takes real wrenching talent,
> riding talent, testing, etc., which obviously costs much more. But if
> the series grows and brings in outside sponsorship, then the better
> non-factory teams ought to be able to manage more.
Even if you could and I think that's a huge stretch, why? You have
absolutely no chance of winning, anything!
>
> You want it both ways - DMG is going to bring big money to racing and
> grow it significantly, but that won't mean anyone will have the money to
> challenge the factories on anything but SS machinery. I think there's a
> very big contradiction there.
Then quit thinking, because there isn't..
>
>> I hear they're pretty much done, the line in the DB's finest sand is
>> drawn, if enough OEM's are in, great, if not, DMG's movin' on and from
>> what I've heard lately, that movin' on will not only be "expeditious,"
>> but without a rear view mirror too..
>
> You sure claim to hear a lot...
I do and that's because I listen, but what I don't do is believe all of
it, as just like the bullshit that gets passed off as news, everyone
has a position, either to make, or take..
>
>>> I know that's the way you like to imagine it, but I think there was
>>> nothing that unified the factories like that first Rog Ed interview in
>>> CN, where he went on about trains leaving stations. He basically
>>> declared war on the factories right then and there, and little serves
>>> to unify like having an aggressor disturb the peace with an all-out
>>> attack...
>>
>> No doubt, but like I said, they "likely started out as a block."
>
> So I guess "started" wasn't actually before all this began, rather it
> was shortly after it actually started?
I thought it started at DIS, didn't it?
>
>>> I wouldn't either, but forced to choose I'd say there will be a peace
>>> of sorts declared by VIR or we'll eventually be hearing about a MIC
>>> series coming down the pike.
>>
>> I can see where the OEM's end up blaming each other for not enough
>> participation
>
> I can't even imagine that happening.
I'm saving that one..
>
> > and of course DMG will catch a bunch of grief too,
>
> As they most definitely should...
In your reality..
>
> > but
>> yeah, I don't doubt for a minute we'll be hearing a lot of stuff, what
>> I don't think we'll be seeing is a series ran in opposition to the AMA..
>
> I still sense the fear in your voice...
Wanna bet real money?
>
>>>> Ulrich? I dunno a whole bunch about him other than he's a rich MZine
>>>> dude whose son rides on (one of?) his team, btw, seems like a nice kid,
>>>> other than that and what he supposedly did for Hoppy, not much, and
>>>> even though I have no reason to question his motives, the fact he's got
>>>> a team and a magazine would make me a little leery of his position,
>>>> whatever it may be..
>>>
>>> Well, he also was on two of the most powerful committees in the AMA and
>>> rewrote the WERA rulebook prior to that. He's a player, and in a rather
>>> unique position to mediate this deal, and clearly has the desire to do
>>> it. Don't know that he exactly has the temperament for it, but...
>>
>> A player for sure, but anytime someone has something at $take, or an
>> advantage to make I get a little wary, but that's just me..
>
> Well, yeah, and that may be the way it played out, with JU now
> apparently blowing the lid off the process and blaming the factories for
> the deadlock. In the early days of this change his mag basically
> maintained silence on it all, even with all the negative developments,
> and I don't think he was in the middle of it all back then. I basically
> accused him of taking sides with his editorial silence, and that
> definitely got his back up. But really the most negative things he'd
> published so far have been reader letters and emails.
Like I said, I don't know much about the dude, but if he's done what
you say I'd prolly like him..
>
>>> Yeah, yeah, we've heard it all before, and I don't believe it anymore
>>> today than I did a year ago. NASCAR's power is with tracks that hold
>>> Cup races, but they're mostly owned by France's ISC, and the rest are
>>> mostly owned by Bruton Smith. And none of the other properties are
>>> powerful enough to do much.
>>
>> I suppose you can disregard gravity, or sunshine if need be, but in
>> reality things are a little different,
>
> So you claim...
I claim nothing, I do, however, believe it..
>
> > but that aside for a minute do
>> you know who and what MIC is? Do you understand the politic$ of the
>> after market? Are you aware of the very "strained relationship" *ALL*
>> OEM's have with the "aftermarket?" If there was ever a way to fail
>> without beginning, well, nevermind..
>
> I don't get the impression that the aftermarket is all that wild about
> DMG's vision, with spec everything, homologation everything and
> contingency everything. Here is Attack's Stanboli in CN on that: "I
> don't think it's profitable for me as a business to sell 20 parts and
> pay out, let's say a number, $12,000 worth of contingency for 20 parts."
Again, someone looking to protect something, or gain an advantage..
>
>>> The larger issue is that there are only so many acceptable SB tracks in
>>> this country, and how many are willing to run two events?
>>
>> Heh, heh, most likely that won't a prob, as I'd imagine any track that
>> would run in opposition of the AMA might have plenty of open dates in
>> their future..
>
> And how is DMG going to manage that? The one real crossover between the
> AMA and DMG is Grand Am, and I would bet the bikes bring in bigger
> crowds generally. So would DMG pull out of a third to half of their
> Grand Am schedule just to flex muscle? I seriously doubt that - what if
> these tracks respond with the ol' raspberry? I think the only non-ISC
> NASCAR track is Sears, and I doubt they pull out of that event just to
> support the bikes.
They probably wouldn't even have to, heh, just the thought of ending up
on France's shitlist would be enough to dash any notion of running a
series in opposition..
>
>>> Money is the big thing, of course, and DMG already seems to have a
>>> number of the small teams intoxicated with dreams of riches...
>>
>> I don't know if money in and of itself has got them salivating as much
>> as a real shot at winning something does, though I'm sure it's in the
>> equation somewhere..
>
> I can see the DMG promotions now - "Come watch Daytona Superbike and see
> former losers on slow bikes actually win!" Great formula for success...
Whatever.. Anyway, gonna drop off this thread before something
"unsavory" happens, later...
XML Sitemap
>
> .."Speaking to private team managers at Mid-Ohio last Saturday evening,
> DMG President Roger Edmondson said that the manufacturers have now
> changed their positions again and are demanding that existing 2008 AMA
> Superbike rules be run in 2009 and beyond. Edmondson characterized the
> process of trying to work with manufacturers as being "a waste of time"
> that could have been better spent finalizing other details for 2009,
> including a three-year HD TV deal with five hours of programming from
> each race weekend.