Moto1

 


Essential reading
http://www.motomatters.com/interview/2009/12/20/peter_clifford_interview_
part_1_there_s_.html

http://www.motomatters.com/interview/2009/12/21/peter_clifford_interview_
part_2_the_priv.html

Trying to make sense of all this. I think Honda-Yamaha-Ducati, and
possibly Suzuki with a little of that VW money, will build prototypes.
They'll be chasing 17k rpm, air-desmo valves, 260bhp, 2500km rebuild
intervals and 21L of fuel. That's going to cost them at least as much as
it costs them now, plus all the costs of the redesign. And Vale won't be
able to resist trying to win back to back 800-1000 races and
championships.

But that leaves a bunch of questions.
- What will Aprilia do?
- Is there really any more chance of an Illmor or KR appearing? The task
just got more difficult, didn't it, not less?
- Is there any chance of a WCM appearing, and if they did, which engine
would they start with? Because none of the current 1000 engines looks
suitable.
- Is there any chance of a major manufacturer offering a part built or
fully built engine as a starting point? Perhaps Kawasaki?
- Will any of the manufacturers deliberately build a 2012 road bike that
is a good starting point. The one that feels possible is Yamaha. What if
there's a 2012 R1 that has a reverse rotation crank, offset cam drive,
81mm bore and ancilliaries stuck behind the block rather than on the end
of the crank? That would fit in with the R1 product cycle.
- What if Ducati do another 500-1000 run of an updated Desmosedici?
- How about BMW and Aprilia? Could they manage a small batch run of
modified/altered engines

I have this depressing thought that Suzuki will finally just pull out.
We'll be left with 15 on the grid and nobody will even attempt any of
the options above. The 3 big manufacturers left will just have to suck
up another big round of costs in the change and then suck up the same
ongoing costs they have now. It's all doom, I tell you.

And all this was supposed to be cheaper?

- All the manufacturers will build prototypes
- Which means new prototypes, and new work on the electronics. Which all
costs lots of money
- They now have to cope with engine life limits, the same fuel
restrictions, but worse than that they'll be trying to work out how to
push the engine rev limits with a fixed bore and stroke. Producing
competitive prototypes didn't get any easier or cheaper, it just got
harder.

So I can't see how it's going to be any easier to find 260hp than it
currently is to find 220hp. So I can't see how it will be any cheaper.

In theory, it will be possible to start with a production engine but
you'll still need an electronics package and a lot of modification.
Given how far an 81mm bore is from any production engine, I'm not sure
anyone is actually going to try. Even if you did, you'll be at the back
of the pack. So what if Yamaha (say) produce a set of prototypes for
their main teams and then produce a limited run modified R1 engine for
their privateers. They've now got to produce what is effectively two
prototypes and support them. More expense.

The "cheaper" argument depends on there being more than enough power so
you can be competitive without chasing ultimate top end. Except I don't
remember 990cc avoiding a horse power race. The moment Ducati can pass
people at will on the straight, everyone else will spend money to try
and stay with them.

So I don't buy this "cheaper" argument. I think it has no clothes.

--
Julian Bond  E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com  M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
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                               Seasoning

 

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:16:57 +0000, Julian Bond


Is it?   <googles>

ZX10R :                 76mm
GSX-R 1000:    73mm
R1 :        77mm
Fireblade:  75mm

Hmm, see what you mean.  Even the closest (the R1) is 4mm off, which I
guess is a significant amount.
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

 


Yup. 4mm is a huge amount when you've already optimised down cylinder
sleeve thickness in the faster-better-cheaper cycle. The old days of
buying a set of TTS pistons and getting an extra 150cc with a rebore are
over.

The only one that's close is the new BMW. Which makes to wonder. The
other problem I think is the sheer width of production engines. The two
straight 4s in MotoGP had done a lot of work to move the cam drive and
all the ancillaries away from the sides of the engine. And at least in
Endurance the teams using R1s were having trouble with ground clearance.
That's going to be that much more of a problem with MotoGP spec tyres.

Which all leaves Aprilia. And who knows where the Piaggio group are
going to jump or if they can find the money under a pillow somewhere.

I think what's really puzzling is that Dorna-FIM-MSMA must all know this
stuff. And there must have been some hints and promises from the
manufacturers that they might help in some way. It's just not clear what
that might have been or what it might turn into when 2012 comes round.

--
Julian Bond  E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com  M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster:          http://www.ecademy.com/       T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog:    http://www.voidstar.com/      skype:julian.bond?chat
                              Less Filling

 


    But they're all eligible, surely?  81 mm is a _maximum_, not
mandatory.  

http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/alfresco/Communiques_de_presse/Grand_Prix_Commission_December_11_2009.pdf

--
Ivan Reid, School of Engineering & Design, _____________  CMS Collaboration,
Brunel University.    Ivan.Reid@[brunel.ac.uk|cern.ch]    Room 40-1-B12, CERN
GSX600F, RG250WD         "You Porsche. Me pass!"   DoD #484     JKLO#003, 005
WP7# 3000   LC Unit #2368 (tinlc)   UKMC#00009   BOTAFOT#16    UKRMMA#7 (Hon)
        KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty".

 

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 19:59:19 +0000 (UTC), "Dr Ivan D. Reid"


Of course.  But if the factories run prototypes built up to the 81mm
limit, then they're going to get revs and power which you're not going
to get anywhere near with  76 or 77mm bore.  So you're very firmly in
the second division before the lights change.
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk