Odds 'n' ends...

actually (not that I agree with Marks over the top conspiracy crap
and I hate his juvenile behavior) it has a lot of salient points
that he was talking about.
- Teams care big time about nationality of riders,
- bikes are very different
- would be difficult because of mentality of GP teams

Look at his evaluation of Spies.
He thinks he could come to the world stage in SBK and immediately win
racesand learn tracks, and could win the championship in his 2nd year.
then mentions that he thinks he wouldn't get decent results in GP because
of team mentality and the bikes. now to me that sounds like he doesn;t
think that Ben would lose because of lack of talent, but because of
the way things (teams/equipment) in MotoGP are setup. Note that I
don't believe it is a conspiracy to keep Ben out of GP, just that
the developmental and operations motives of the series and the teams
run counter to that.

Bruce

Posted by Mark N on June 13, 2008, 7:27 pm

Bruce Hartweg wrote:

> Champ wrote:

> > You know that there's nothing at all in that Batta interview that

> > supports your point of view?

All in the eye of the beholder, I guess...

> actually (not that I agree with Marks over the top conspiracy crap

To what "over the top conspiracy crap" do you refer? I don't think I
have described anything here that would comprise a conspiracy,
strictly speaking. There certainly are deals made between parties
behind closed doors, like whatever happened between Dorna,
Bridgestone, Michelin and Yamaha to make Rossi happy and to revised
the tire rule, or between Dorna and certain teams to ensure
representation of certain nationalities on the grid. But I have never
even suggested a wide-ranging conspiracy of any kind, certainly not
against American riders in GP. There's no doubt that Dorna wants
Americans in GP, as part of their American expansion strategy, but
there has been no real need to wade in on their behalf so far.

Anyway, I get accused of this all the time around here, and usually by
people who grossly misrepresent my positions, so I would appreciate
the enlightenment from someone who usually doesn't...

> and I hate his juvenile behavior) it has a lot of salient points

> that he was talking about.

> =A0 =A0- Teams care big time about nationality of riders,

> =A0 =A0- bikes are very different

> =A0 =A0- would be difficult because of mentality of GP teams

> Look at his evaluation of Spies.

> He thinks he could come to the world stage in SBK and immediately win

> racesand learn tracks, and could win the championship in his 2nd year.

> then mentions that he thinks he wouldn't get decent results in GP because

> of team mentality and the bikes. now to me that sounds like he doesn;t

> think that Ben would lose because of lack of talent, but because of

> the way things (teams/equipment) in MotoGP are setup. Note that I

> don't believe it is a conspiracy to keep Ben out of GP, just that

> the developmental and operations motives of the series and the teams

> run counter to that.

Exactly. There is no one who has a vested interest in keeping Spies
out of GP, except possibly Suzuki themselves, who may feel Spies
winning in WSB would serve their purposes better. But they seem quite
willing to give him a shot to date. Beyond whether or not he has the
necessary raw talent, his issues are:

1) Is he too big? In addition to having to offset the additional
weight like anyone else of normal size in the class (and he'd walk in
as the largest guy, at 6'0" and 155-160 pounds), he'd have to fit on
the bike. That's unlikely to be a problem at Suzuki or at Yamaha, but
it definitely would be a problem at Honda.
2) Does he serve the purpose of retaining or obtaining sponsorship for
the team? The answer there is most definitely, no. So he'd have to
land on a team which is already adequately funded and/or has another
rider who serves that purpose. The Monster deal at Kawasaki invoving
Hopkins is probably the only situation in the contemporary commercial
era of GP which worked to an American rider's advantage, although I do
suspect that Repsol sees some value in Hayden.
3) Is his riding style wrong? Again, probably depends on the bike, but
at least he's a guy who didn't grow up dirttracking and has a heavy
lean angle / high corner speed sort of style for a SBer.
4) Has he been riding production bikes too long, is he too old? I
think he's only 23, and I really don't buy this angle anyway, he's
hardly an old dog.
5) Will he adapt quickly enough? Tracks and travel, I don't know, but
he certainly adapted to SBs quickly, winning the championship in his
2nd year.
6) Will anyone meet his salary demands? I think that largely comes
down to his performances in the races this year. If he really
sparkles, then there could be competition and real desire for his
services. If not, he probably is dependent on Suzuki and the money
won't be there. If that's the case, does he want GP enough to do it,
or might he end up with Alstare in WSB instead, or back home in dsb?
My guess is he'll do GP no matter what, even if it's a third Suzuki or
a D'Antin Ducati - the end of AMA SB has eliminated his backup. And if
Suzuki does pull out of racing here, I'd bet their budget ends up
supporting him, in GP or WSB.

Posted by sturd on June 14, 2008, 10:53 am

Mark N rants away:

> > Champ wrote:

> > > You know that there's nothing at all in that Batta interview that

> > > supports your point of view?

> Beyond whether or not he has the

> necessary raw talent, his issues are:

> 1) Is he too big?

Batta doesn't mention this. Your pet conspiracy theory.

> 2) Does he serve the purpose of retaining or obtaining sponsorship for

> the team?

Not mentioned, at least as far as Batta is concerned his sponsorship
issues must not get worse with Ben, since he wants him, so Ben must
be OK in this respect. Winning brings sponsors.

> 3) Is his riding style wrong?

Not for SB by Batta's account. For MotoGP? We're about to find
out.

> 4) Has he been riding production bikes too long, is he too old?

Not a concern for Batta.

> 5) Will he adapt quickly enough?

Batta thinks so for SB, not for MotoGP. We're about to get some
indication of it

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=32855

Two Euro races, then Laguna and Indy. The Euro races especially
will help tell whether the team and Ben can get the bike to work for
him.
They've got plenty of data, if they can use it with Ben to get the
bike even close that will be good. Learning the tracks is far easier.
And that will go away completely when they arrive at Laguna.
By then they'll either have the bike close - or not - and we'll see
what they've got for MotoGP.

> 6) Will anyone meet his salary demands?

Answer is already yes.

Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.

Posted by Mark N on June 14, 2008, 12:24 pm

sturd wrote:

> Mark N rants away:

Rant? Are you so incapable of arguing your point of view that you have
to attach labels like this?

>>> Champ wrote:

>>>> You know that there's nothing at all in that Batta interview that

>>>> supports your point of view?

>> Beyond whether or not he has the

>> necessary raw talent, his issues are:

>> 1) Is he too big?

> Batta doesn't mention this.

I wasn't tying this to Batta at all, and was talking about Spies' issues
in MotoGP.

> Your pet conspiracy theory.

...and labels like this?

You're the guy who said this: "There's almost certainly a 'best' size.
I'm guessing it's around 5' 10", 160 lbs. Real close to Hayden and
Rossi's size." So if you believe that, then Spies has no issue at all.
But then he would be the largest rider on the MotoGP grid, and some
20-25 pounds above the current grid average. Sounds like there's some
contradiction or flaw in there somewhere...

>> 6) Will anyone meet his salary demands?

> Answer is already yes.

Huh? How's that?

Posted by Julian Bond on June 15, 2008, 3:50 am

>6) Will anyone meet his salary demands? I think that largely comes

>down to his performances in the races this year.

Put that another way. How much personal sponsorship could he command in
MotoGP and how much could he bring to the team.

--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
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