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Posted by Mark N on June 15, 2008, 12:10 pm
Julian Bond wrote:
> Mark N
>> 6) Will anyone meet his salary demands? I think that largely comes
>> down to his performances in the races this year.
>
> Put that another way. How much personal sponsorship could he command in
> MotoGP and how much could he bring to the team.
I'm guessing you missed my #2 then. Regarding both of those notions,
personal and team, it pretty much comes down to nationality, doesn't it?
And that you mention this suggests you agree that a rider's ability to
act as a money magnate is as material as his ability to win races.
My guess is, as I said, that Spies making the kind of money he wants to
make "over there" comes down to making people over there believe that he
is something special, that he can bring success that others can't, and
do that in some tangible way. His opportunity to do that is in the three
or four races he'll now be doing for Suzuki this year. He'd have to do
well enough to displace someone of accomplishment on one of the factory
teams - Vermeulen or Capirossi at Suzuki or Melandri at Ducati or West
at Kawasaki. I can't even imagine Poncharal or D'Antin paying him
anything like what he makes now, although Yamaha or Ducati could
subsidize that as a rider development cost (Yamaha is paying Edwards
now). The advantage at Suzuki is that American Suzuki could end up
paying part of the freight. But I do think these races are very
important to him, particularly the two in the US.
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Posted by Champ on June 14, 2008, 10:43 am
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:30:02 -0500, Bruce Hartweg
>Champ wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 12:47:49 -0700 (PDT), Mark N
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> You know that there's nothing at all in that Batta interview that
>> supports your point of view?
>
>actually (not that I agree with Marks over the top conspiracy crap
>and I hate his juvenile behavior) it has a lot of salient points
>that he was talking about.
> - Teams care big time about nationality of riders,
All he says is that Suzuki would really *like* a US rider
> - bikes are very different
MotoGP bikes are. Much like 500s, very few people have gone quick on
them straight away. Add those that have (e.g. Abe, Koscinski) haven't
shined later. It'll be interesting to see how Lorenzo fairs.
> - would be difficult because of mentality of GP teams
I didn't read it that way at all - Batta was saying that in WSB he'll
be ona competitive bike and can probably go quick straight away,
whereas in GP the bikes are very different, and Suzuki are not really
competitive. He does say that GP teams want results in 3~4 years, but
I can't think of another race series where you even get that long!
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk
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Posted by Mark N on June 14, 2008, 12:23 pm
Champ wrote:
> Bruce Hartweg wrote:
>> Champ wrote:
>>> You know that there's nothing at all in that Batta interview that
>>> supports your point of view?
>> actually it has a lot of salient points
>> that he was talking about.
>> - Teams care big time about nationality of riders,
> All he says is that Suzuki would really *like* a US rider
No, he says more than that; for instance, and to my point, he said: "For
three riders in Alstare, the ideal composition would be: one rider,
Japanese; one rider, American; and one rider, European".
>> - bikes are very different
> MotoGP bikes are. Much like 500s, very few people have gone quick on
> them straight away. Add those that have (e.g. Abe, Koscinski) haven't
> shined later. It'll be interesting to see how Lorenzo fairs.
But if the argument is that MotoGP bikes today are purely the state of
the art and the result of advancement in absolute terms, not shaped for
a certain type or size of rider or riding style, which is kind of what
IL4 was claiming, then there shouldn't be some big difference in ability
to adapt to them between 250 riders and SB riders, especially given that
basic weight, power and power delivery characteristics are more similar
to SBs than 250s. Obviously there is little or no adaptation issue to
move to Suzuki in WSB regarding the machine itself, since he's been
racing that machine, but Batta suggests there's a pretty big one in
moving to GP.
>> - would be difficult because of mentality of GP teams
> I didn't read it that way at all - Batta was saying that in WSB he'll
> be ona competitive bike and can probably go quick straight away,
> whereas in GP the bikes are very different, and Suzuki are not really
> competitive.
He does say more than that, but what he's saying on that point isn't
entirely clear to me.
He does say that GP teams want results in 3~4 years, but
> I can't think of another race series where you even get that long!
Not sure about that. I think part of the perception of MotoGP is based
on that first JIS generation, guys like Checa and Abe who hung around
for years without a lot of tangible success. There really hasn't been a
huge amount of turnover, which is partially what should be expected -
riders of that required level of talent shouldn't just be
interchangeable parts, there are only so many of them - and partially
because the people doing the hiring have mostly been unable/unwilling to
look much beyond their own 250 class.
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Posted by Julian Bond on June 15, 2008, 3:55 am
>But if the argument is that MotoGP bikes today are purely the state of
>the art and the result of advancement in absolute terms, not shaped for
>a certain type or size of rider or riding style, which is kind of what
>IL4 was claiming, then there shouldn't be some big difference in
>ability to adapt to them between 250 riders and SB riders, especially
>given that basic weight, power and power delivery characteristics are
>more similar to SBs than 250s. Obviously there is little or no
>adaptation issue to move to Suzuki in WSB regarding the machine itself,
>since he's been racing that machine, but Batta suggests there's a
>pretty big one in moving to GP.
So have you read what Herve or Toseland have said about having to throw
out everything you knew as an SB rider to come to terms with a MotoGP
bike?
- Electronics, electronics, electronics
- Adjustable everything
- Carbon brakes
- The very best tyres in loads of compounds and constructions with crazy
qualifiers that last 90% of one lap.
--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog: http://www.voidstar.com/ skype:julian.bond?chat
Reapply After Prolonged Perspiration
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Posted by Mark N on June 15, 2008, 12:33 pm
Julian Bond wrote:
> Mark N
>> But if the argument is that MotoGP bikes today are purely the state of
>> the art and the result of advancement in absolute terms, not shaped
>> for a certain type or size of rider or riding style, which is kind of
>> what IL4 was claiming, then there shouldn't be some big difference in
>> ability to adapt to them between 250 riders and SB riders, especially
>> given that basic weight, power and power delivery characteristics are
>> more similar to SBs than 250s. Obviously there is little or no
>> adaptation issue to move to Suzuki in WSB regarding the machine
>> itself, since he's been racing that machine, but Batta suggests
>> there's a pretty big one in moving to GP.
>
> So have you read what Herve or Toseland have said about having to throw
> out everything you knew as an SB rider to come to terms with a MotoGP bike?
>
> - Electronics, electronics, electronics
> - Adjustable everything
> - Carbon brakes
> - The very best tyres in loads of compounds and constructions with crazy
> qualifiers that last 90% of one lap.
But isn't it pretty much the same for guys coming off 250s? They don't
have even the electronics and rider aids that today's SBs have, they use
steel brakes, their Dunlops can't be materially better than the Dunlops
the guys race on over here, and they probably don't have more
compound/construction options. As for adjustability, I doubt that's much
more either, although they might have some in certain areas.
I really don't have a very clear idea about what makes the 800s so
250-like in the way guys ride them, it's not like the power they make is
so inadequate compared to a SB that you'd have to ride them completely
differently, and the chassis geometry isn't extreme and 250-like. So to
me it seems likely that a big part of it is that guys like Rossi,
Roberts, Biaggi, Capirossi, Nakano, Gibernau, Pedrosa, Checa, Okada,
Aoki, et al have been providing most of the input from the beginning,
all guys who have a 250 and two-stroke background. And the expectation
is and has been that they'd mostly be used by guys coming off 250s going
forward, so that should be the target. If these machines had been
largely shaped by guys who came up on 600s and SBs and had been built by
race shops in Japan who had been focused entirely on SB development,
they might have come out quite differently. The closest thing to that is
Ducati, of course, and the struggles that classic 250 stylist Melandri
is having suggests there might be something to this.
Or not. And the change from 250s to 600 four strokes in the support
class could make a massive difference, as I've said. To you question, no
I haven't - is it on the web?
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