Posted by Champ on October 27, 2008, 6:01 am
wrote:
>Not being a racing anorak, I'm wondering if there are any records left
>for Rossi to go after, other than oldest winner of a GP/championship?
>What about wins/championships on the most different makes of bike?
Well, there's a few. Rossi has won six championships in the top
class, and eight overall. Agostini won eight championships, and *15*
overall! (back in those days riders rode in 2 or 3 GPs on a Sunday).
Also, Angel Nieto has 13 championships, and Mike Hailwood and Carlos
Ubbiali have 9 each.
Actually, I got this info from
http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid •386
Also of significance is the spread between first and last championship
(Rossi currently on 11 years) - the record is Nieto - 1969 to 1984.
(cross-posted to rec.motorcycles.racing, so that MarkN can do his
stuff with stats, or, more likely, decry the value of 'lesser'
championships)
--
Champ
What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger
ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R600 racer (for sale) | ZX10R racer (broken)
neal at champ dot org dot uk
Posted by Ace on October 27, 2008, 6:14 am
>wrote:
>>Not being a racing anorak, I'm wondering if there are any records left
>>for Rossi to go after, other than oldest winner of a GP/championship?
>>What about wins/championships on the most different makes of bike?
>Well, there's a few. Rossi has won six championships in the top
>class, and eight overall. Agostini won eight championships, and *15*
>overall! (back in those days riders rode in 2 or 3 GPs on a Sunday).
Indeed, and the racing world was all the better for it. Is it just
that they think it's too difficult to adjust these days, that they
only comipete in a single class? I mean, I'd love to see whether the
motoGP boys could still cut it in 250s, or how they'd manage on
superbikes, but it's only very rarely that we get to see these sorts
of crossovers.
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Posted by Champ on October 27, 2008, 6:17 am
>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Not being a racing anorak, I'm wondering if there are any records left
>>>for Rossi to go after, other than oldest winner of a GP/championship?
>>>What about wins/championships on the most different makes of bike?
>>
>>Well, there's a few. Rossi has won six championships in the top
>>class, and eight overall. Agostini won eight championships, and *15*
>>overall! (back in those days riders rode in 2 or 3 GPs on a Sunday).
>Indeed, and the racing world was all the better for it. Is it just
>that they think it's too difficult to adjust these days, that they
>only comipete in a single class? I mean, I'd love to see whether the
>motoGP boys could still cut it in 250s, or how they'd manage on
>superbikes, but it's only very rarely that we get to see these sorts
>of crossovers.
The last person to try it was Spencer back in 1985, and it was thought
to be an exceptional attempt when he started it, and an amazing
achiebment when he managed it. And that was over 20 years ago.
Spencer also certainly had a machine advantage in the 250 class, if
not in the 500.
I don't think even Rossi would consider it. But then again, knowing
Rossi...
--
Champ
What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger
ZX10R | GPz750turbo | GSX-R600 racer (for sale) | ZX10R racer (broken)
neal at champ dot org dot uk
Posted by Mark N on October 27, 2008, 8:36 am
Champ wrote:
> Ace wrote:
>> Champ wrote:
>>> "Krusty" wrote:
>>>
>>>> Not being a racing anorak, I'm wondering if there are any records left
>>>> for Rossi to go after, other than oldest winner of a GP/championship?
>>>> What about wins/championships on the most different makes of bike?
>>> Well, there's a few. Rossi has won six championships in the top
>>> class, and eight overall. Agostini won eight championships, and *15*
>>> overall! (back in those days riders rode in 2 or 3 GPs on a Sunday).
>> Indeed, and the racing world was all the better for it. Is it just
>> that they think it's too difficult to adjust these days, that they
>> only comipete in a single class? I mean, I'd love to see whether the
>> motoGP boys could still cut it in 250s, or how they'd manage on
>> superbikes, but it's only very rarely that we get to see these sorts
>> of crossovers.
>
> The last person to try it was Spencer back in 1985, and it was thought
> to be an exceptional attempt when he started it, and an amazing
> achiebment when he managed it. And that was over 20 years ago.
> Spencer also certainly had a machine advantage in the 250 class, if
> not in the 500.
>
> I don't think even Rossi would consider it. But then again, knowing
> Rossi...
Among other things to consider is that Ago's other seven championships
were in 350 and not 250 or 125. Hailwood did win three 250
championships, though, and Read four. And Read was the only rider prior
to Criville to win both a 125 and a 500 championship.
But of course today is different than in the past, and again one big
thing one must consider is size. Just as a post-season summary I checked
my final numbers yesterday, and this year for the first time in since at
least 2003 the average race winner's weight in MotoGP went up, from
131.7 lbs in '07 to 135.3 this year. That's because Rossi had more wins
than Stoner, of course, but the number is still lower than it had been
in 03-06. And the average weight of the podium placers dropped for at
least the third straight year, from 135.5 lbs. in '07 to 131.4 this
year, and down from 145.4 in '05.
Now this is all because of the guys coming from 250, recalling that the
average 250 winner's weight last year was just 120 lbs., and the average
weight for the proper graduates from 250 since '04 in MotoGP today is
only 125 lbs. Now obviously Simoncelli has pushed the stats upward this
year, and I can't find anything on his height or weight on the net, but
clearly he's bigger than the guys doing all the winning in 250 over the
last few years. But not knowing that, one must consider that the last
rider of about Rossi's weight (147 lbs / 67 kilos) to win in 250 was
Rolfo in '04, and after Rolfo the winners drop like a stone, de Puniet
being the only one at even 135 pounds that I can think of. And it's
pretty certain that Rossi weighed notably less when he was on a 250; I
found an Italian site that said he weighed only 59 kilos, and that was
from 2002 when he was in his third year in the premier class.
So even though MotoGP riders are getting a lot smaller and Simoncelli
has shown that you don't absolutely have to be 5'4" and 120 pounds to
win in 250, you have to wonder if Rossi is simply too big to ride a 250
effectively today. That's not a problem for the more recent grads, but
it is for anyone coming from SB, all guys Rossi's size.
Of course the reality is also that 250 is only a rider development class
for MotoGP today, so his competition would be a bunch of kids of notably
less experience in addition to less talent (probably part of the reason
Simincelli can win there today). So who knows, he'd probably kick their
asses even dangling off the bike and stressing the suspension. But there
is really no point in a MotoGP racer doing the lesser classes today,
because they are no longer free-standing championships of some merit,
and haven't been for some time. It's a bit like Pedrosa racing in the
Red Bull rookies series as well as MotoGP; his size is right but it
doesn't mean much.
Posted by Julian Bond on October 27, 2008, 1:29 pm
>But of course today is different than in the past, and again one big
>thing one must consider is size.
No. Really?
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>for Rossi to go after, other than oldest winner of a GP/championship?
>What about wins/championships on the most different makes of bike?