Posted by voeut on April 5, 2006, 4:07 pm
Latest from WSB is that if Ducati run a 1200cc engine then Suzuki will
pull out and this week Ducati have stated that if they cannot run a
bigger motor they will quit WSB! I think Suzuki is right here. Cylinder
creep has always been a substitute for innovation and has almost always
been the herald of the phasing out of an engine design. Ducati have
previewed a road 1200 and it's a throwback to the 916, (always a
controversial departure from the design of the 888 and 906). But there
is a more important point here, with Motogp reducing to 800cc soon,
Ducatis 1200 would break one of the fundamental rules of modern
motorcycle racing, "WSB fast, Motogp faster".
Posted by T3 on April 5, 2006, 4:45 pm
voeut@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> Latest from WSB is that if Ducati run a 1200cc engine then Suzuki will
> pull out and this week Ducati have stated that if they cannot run a
> bigger motor they will quit WSB! I think Suzuki is right here. Cylinder
> creep has always been a substitute for innovation and has almost always
> been the herald of the phasing out of an engine design. Ducati have
> previewed a road 1200 and it's a throwback to the 916, (always a
> controversial departure from the design of the 888 and 906). But there
> is a more important point here, with Motogp reducing to 800cc soon,
> Ducatis 1200 would break one of the fundamental rules of modern
> motorcycle racing, "WSB fast, Motogp faster".
>
The other side of the coin is that we're probably seeing the end of the
twins in big time racing, though it was probably just an interim deal
anyway as I fully expect Duc to homologate the V-4 when it happens later
this year...
Posted by Julian Bond on April 5, 2006, 5:17 pm
voeut@hotmail.co.uk Wed, 5 Apr 2006 13:07:47
>Latest from WSB is that if Ducati run a 1200cc engine then Suzuki will
>pull out and this week Ducati have stated that if they cannot run a
>bigger motor they will quit WSB! I think Suzuki is right here. Cylinder
>creep has always been a substitute for innovation and has almost always
>been the herald of the phasing out of an engine design. Ducati have
>previewed a road 1200 and it's a throwback to the 916, (always a
>controversial departure from the design of the 888 and 906). But there
>is a more important point here, with Motogp reducing to 800cc soon,
>Ducatis 1200 would break one of the fundamental rules of modern
>motorcycle racing, "WSB fast, Motogp faster".
It's tricky. Perhaps a better route would be to pull 1000-2 tuning back
to the current level for 1000-4s and reduce the tuning allowed on the 4s
further. But if Ducati need to produce a 1200 to compete on the road
with 1000-4s what are they going to race? The fundamental problem is the
sheer cost of racing twins under the current formulae.
I personally think Ducati should build enough Desmosedici reps to
homologate and race that. But they seem to be hung up on Ducati being a
Twin company and that's what they want to race in SBK. The Desmosedici
rep is seen as being a poseur's bike only at a stratospheric price. Like
Ferrari F50 (or whatever their flagship machine is these days) .
--
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Posted by Mark N on April 5, 2006, 10:50 pm
Julian Bond wrote:
> voeut@hotmail.co.uk Wed, 5 Apr 2006 13:07:47
>> Latest from WSB is that if Ducati run a 1200cc engine then Suzuki will
>> pull out and this week Ducati have stated that if they cannot run a
>> bigger motor they will quit WSB! I think Suzuki is right here. Cylinder
>> creep has always been a substitute for innovation and has almost always
>> been the herald of the phasing out of an engine design. Ducati have
>> previewed a road 1200 and it's a throwback to the 916, (always a
>> controversial departure from the design of the 888 and 906). But there
>> is a more important point here, with Motogp reducing to 800cc soon,
>> Ducatis 1200 would break one of the fundamental rules of modern
>> motorcycle racing, "WSB fast, Motogp faster".
> It's tricky. Perhaps a better route would be to pull 1000-2 tuning back
> to the current level for 1000-4s and reduce the tuning allowed on the 4s
> further. But if Ducati need to produce a 1200 to compete on the road
> with 1000-4s what are they going to race? The fundamental problem is the
> sheer cost of racing twins under the current formulae.
>
> I personally think Ducati should build enough Desmosedici reps to
> homologate and race that. But they seem to be hung up on Ducati being a
> Twin company and that's what they want to race in SBK. The Desmosedici
> rep is seen as being a poseur's bike only at a stratospheric price. Like
> Ferrari F50 (or whatever their flagship machine is these days) .
I see no problem with racing a 1200cc twin, as long as Ducati is
building them for the street, as long as they think they can build one
that will actually hold together, and as long as twins and fours operate
under identical rules, what ever they are.
The core concept of SB racing is racing what is sold for use on the
street, and 1000-4s are exactly that. Twins seems fully competitive to
me now, but a big part of the problem with the current rules is that the
twins get built to a different, and more expensive, spec. The 20%
displacement advantage is even less than the 25% in SS and much less
than the old 33% in SB, so that doesn't seem to be a problem. But make
Ducati build a lot of 'em for homolagtion requirements, so they stop
building those race-only specials. Make them real road bikes, across the
board.
And I would favor modification of rules that fell somewhere between the
twin and four rules now; there is too little flexibility given to fours
now. There's no worry about these things being faster than MotoGP
machines even with a displacement advantage, other than in a straight
line. 800cc prototypes of lighter weight with the best riders and tires
should always be faster than SBs. But if WSB tosses this Pirelli
business and GP goes back to passing on riders who aren't "economically
viable", that could change...
Posted by Julian Bond on April 6, 2006, 2:46 am
>And I would favor modification of rules that fell somewhere between the
>twin and four rules now; there is too little flexibility given to fours
>now.
How so? The chassis rules are the same. The engine rules for fours don't
allow changing major components for exotic versions. But that is as much
about limiting revs as anything else. The one major tuning limitation is
in what can be changed on the aftermarket cams.
Where do you strike the balance here? The history of WSB is one of
weight, tuning and homologation limit breaks to keep the twins in the
game. Many people (including you) have said that the breaks went too far
and gave the twins too much of an advantage. Now we're talking again
about adjusting the rules to keep the twins in the game.
--
Julian Bond E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster: http://www.ecademy.com/ T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
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> pull out and this week Ducati have stated that if they cannot run a
> bigger motor they will quit WSB! I think Suzuki is right here. Cylinder
> creep has always been a substitute for innovation and has almost always
> been the herald of the phasing out of an engine design. Ducati have
> previewed a road 1200 and it's a throwback to the 916, (always a
> controversial departure from the design of the 888 and 906). But there
> is a more important point here, with Motogp reducing to 800cc soon,
> Ducatis 1200 would break one of the fundamental rules of modern
> motorcycle racing, "WSB fast, Motogp faster".
>