US Racing. I don't get it.

 In the latest Motorcycle Racer, there's a column from Norm De Witt. I
think this was written just after Daytona and before any of the details
came out. He's generally hopeful and was talking as though Superbike
would remain the top class. He quotes a Dunlop guy saying that there was
really no reason why the Daytona 200 shouldn't be SBK. They introduced a
new tyre carcass design 18 months before and it could handle the speed;
SBK raced on the same circuit anyway; and the laps between tyre stops
was pretty much the same as the SBK race. So he didn't think the safety
issue held up. From their point of view anyway.

I'm sure I've said this before. If the problem is Suzuki dominance why
aren't the other teams better? Honda in BSB and Ten Kate in WSB are
competitive. They won last year's WSB, remember? Yamaha Italia are
competitive in WSB. Kawasaki are nowhere (yet) in BSB and WSB and yet
they're beginning to look like they are 3rd in line after the two
Suzukis in the US. What does that say about Yamaha and Honda? And then
Duhamel's looking old and I really don't know if Hodgson can cut it. But
do American Honda even know what they're doing these days?

--
Julian Bond  E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com  M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster:          http://www.ecademy.com/       T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog:    http://www.voidstar.com/      skype:julian.bond?chat
                       Proof Of Purchase Required

 Julian Bond wrote:

But is that using the second banking, the old course? And can DMG build
the class they want out of literbikes, a class not so dominated by the
Japanese, which is obviously their desire? I think you have to look at
what Daytona wants in the bigger picture, and that's been
middleweight-based for years now.


Yes, you've said it before, and you're asking once again because you
refuse to listen to the answers. Before the HRC-supported team came to
BSB how long had it been since Honda won even a race in BSB? How long
has it been since Suzuki, Yamaha and Kawasaki have won a race there?
Every series is different these days, because there hasn't been a
strong, centralized factory SB effort in Japan since they pulled out of
WSB and started focusing entirely on MotoGP.

I think it's all pretty simple over here. Suzuki has continued to run a
SB R&D operation in Japan right through the MGP era, and that effort has
largely been driven by the US program, which means by Mladin. WSB also
got the fruit of that, and has had competitive bikes since the return of
Alstare a few years ago and Corser won them a dominant championship. BSB
apparently hasn't. So Mladin gets a bike that works to his desires, and
he has a veteran team that he's worked with for more than a decade.
Since he's at the sharp end of the stick he also likely gets more input
into the Dunlop tire development over here, which is ultimately another
advantage. He's almost certainly been the best rider here at least since
Nicky and Gobert left after '02, which has been his biggest edge, of course.

So Spies comes along, and he inherits some of that, starting to run the
Yosh SB with his current team five years ago (in FX). He's very, very
good, and as soon as he had enough experience he started beating a
somewhat complacent Mladin, who has since reacted and has won 20 of the
last 29 races, Spies getting the other 9, of course. They push each
other very hard, there's no notable equipment difference, so they've
raised the playing field significantly in this series.

The third Yosh SB hasn't won since the last race of '05, which was
Yates' only win that year, and before that you have to go back to '03.
So that supports the notion that it's less about the Yosh bikes and more
about Mladin and Spies. Kawasaki hasn't won since '03, but they pulled
out for two years after that so are still getting their sea legs in SB.
They seem to be getting as much support as Japan has to offer, but
they're also in early development of a new machine, having apparently
made a jump at Sears. Yamaha pulled out of SB after '02, were gone for
four years, and in last year's return apparently were making a purely
in-house development effort, with predictable results. This year they
are benefiting from the European WSB work, Yamaha apparently having
essentially no SB R&D operation in Japan, but are still figuring out
those bikes. DiSalvo has shown its potential, apparently getting on with
it almost immediately, but Bostrom hasn't and has struggled. But he also
made something of a jump at Sears, just like Hacking, and that's a track
he hasn't ever gotten on with very well.

Honda is a bit more perplexing. HRC obviously has continued to do SB
work, perhaps mostly focused on Suzuka, and they do seem to get some
help from Japan. They never stopped racing SBs, and have been doing this
in-house thing for more than three years now. The have a new machine
like Kawi, but it seems to have an awful lot of potential. Yet they have
only one win since the HRC days in '04. Duhamel, I think he is past his
expiration date, and he's never been reputed to be a good development
guy. I'm not at all convinced that Hodgson is the same, but he's new
with the team and coming off an idle year. We'll see.

What is the case is that all the bikes behind the two dominant guys tend
to be reasonably close, and who is fastest tends to change race to race.
That suggests the bikes aren't so terribly different. And recall that
the Ducati factory effort of 05-06 was in the same position, and I
really think they bailed because they realized they just couldn't catch
Mladin and Spies, not without a rider of equal caliber. And is there one
out there?

Anyway, here is something Noyes says in his current article at Speed on
Spies and MGP:
(http://moto-racing.speedtv.com/article/motogp-gp-prospect-ben-spies-part-i/ )

"Luckily for Ben Spies, his battles with Mat Mladin in AMA Superbike are
valued by MotoGP team bosses. In national championships, far from the
direct scrutiny of MotoGP eyes, a rider’s value is determined by the
perceived level of his rivals. And regardless of the true strength of
the other AMA Superbike regulars, the perception in Europe is that
Yoshimura Suzuki is the superior team and that Mladin (before Tommy
Hayden’s injury) was the only rider other than Spies with truly
competitive machinery. Perception is reality when it comes to placing
value on MotoGP prospects."

I think what he's suggesting is that Europe is to a great extent
unfairly belittling American racing, and maybe only in part because of
ignorance. Wouldn't be the first time...

 
Who knows. But it's a report from April '08. Is the old course a likely
choice for next year's "Daytona Superbikes"?


IIRC, they came over when Edwards left for MotoGP. The year before that
was a couple of private and undeveloped RC51 We're going back quite a
ways now and I really can't remember who if anyone ran RC45s in BSB.
Rutter perhaps? The year he came really close to beating Fogarty and
Kocinski in the rain at Brands?


There's competitiveness and then there's winning. Suzuki has been very
close at times. Kawasaki less so. '07 Byrne had podiums and a win.
Crutchlow had a podium. 06, Byrne had podiums and wins, Scott Smart had
one win on the Kawasaki. Yamaha have been struggling on a limited budget
with either very young riders or guys who maybe should have retired.  On
occasion they've been up there and Karl Harris has the speed this year
but he's been getting over-excited, had machine failures and been swept
off his bike by low flying Suzukis.


OK. But as you know I don't think what comes out of Japan is or should
be everything in SBK


I love this. So Alstare win because of the US team? Yeah, right.


So really, the other teams are useless because they're useless. They're
in, they're out, they're in again, they're finding their feet, they
haven't got riders of the calibre of Mladin and Spies. Next?

 >Honda is a bit more perplexing. HRC obviously has continued to do SB
 >work, perhaps mostly focused on Suzuka, and they do seem to get some
 >help from Japan.

I thought the whole point was that American Honda went their own way.
Now they get help from Japan again? So what help is that exactly?
Perhaps it's the HRC traction control that Ten Kate threw out.


Whatever. None of this matters much and it's not exactly new that one
team is just playing the game better than the others. It happens in all
series from time to time. It only matters now because it's being used as
a stick to royally screw up US racing. Now if that means more Americans
in the world championships, then great. But that's a short term gain. In
the longer run, where is the next Spies going to show their worth if
there's no major series in the USA that's comparable to the rest of the
world? The GP and WSB bosses may be paying a little attention to AMA
racing now. Will they pay any attention at all, at all to NasBike?

It's all probably irrelevant now, but your comments tell me that the
answer to the problem was for the other teams to try harder rather than
for the Suzukis to be limited. The old SBK needs more, better funded,
better run teams with better riders. Which then means more promotion and
better TV coverage to attract better sponsors to pay for it all. So
maybe at the bottom of all this, the problem with US SBK is actually
that Speed TV has an exclusive contract and they're shit. But what do I
know. It's 8 years since I had to suffer Speed TV in pursuit of my M/C
racing fix. But judging by the Daytona footage we got this year it's
still shit. And doesn't the new management have some vested interest in
keeping that Speed exclusive coverage? Oh dear.

--
Julian Bond  E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com  M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster:          http://www.ecademy.com/       T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog:    http://www.voidstar.com/      skype:julian.bond?chat
                           Rinses Out Easily

  Julian Bond wrote:

The only thing I've seen was one of the DMG guys saying the fans were
unhappy with the change in the course. Since this thing is so daytona-
centric and dictatorial, it wouldn't surprise me at all.


I thought HRC didn't arrive until Kiyonari did, which was in '04. And,
yes, my recollection was that Honda didn't win a race during BSB's
"glory years" around the turn of the century.


Are you sure Suzuki won a race last year? I thought Honda and Ducati
won them all, same as so far this year.


Perhaps not, but there's no question that having a factory SB is
something of an edge, look at Honda and Ducati in BSB last year. I
don't think Yosh running factory stuff makes winning prohibitive for
everyone else, but it makes it a bit tougher.


Well, actually what I said was that the US team has significantly been
driving the SB development program in Japan, because they have been
getting consistent input from them for a decade or more and the US
effort is obviously very important to Suzuki. Alstare didn't even
field a SB in '04, so you think they were largely responsible for the
development of the '05 championship-winning bike?

I guess this falls into the "European belittlement of US racing"
category...


...and this also falls into the "European belittlement of US racing"
category, I guess. So anyone who can't win is "useless", which I
assume is a lot like incompetent? Yes, Kawasaki and Yamaha left SB
racing for a few years, we all know that. The ones who really have
been in and out are Ducati, of course, because they only race in SB
where they can win, and a lot. You wanted to know why Suzuki wins so
much over here and that's part of the reason.

On the other hand, in Europe the racing is made closer by requiring
everuyone to run on crappy Pirelli spec tires. The last good
comparison here was in '04, at Laguna, where the AMA pole was a 24.9
and the WSB SP a 26.9. Two seconds can cover up a lot of sins, I
think, even Josh Hayes on the Attack Kawi was faster than anyone in
WSB. So E-Boz was 3 seconds off brother Ben's pole, but would he have
been that far off on crappy Pirelli tires? E-Boz was 16 seconds back
in the race, would that have been closer? Seems like people almost
universally believe spec tires make things closer, and I think crappy
ones even moreso.


Yeah, they use that because they're just stupid, useless Americans,
right? No, they don't lease full HRC SBs like they used to, but that
doesn't mean they are totally separated from HRC and use nothing they
develop.


...said Julian, dismissing the notion after fully displaying it...

None of this matters much and it's not exactly new that one

Absolutely correct.

Now if that means more Americans

That's a very real concern and I'm not all that optimistic. It's
possible that if the thing works to make racing here bigger and more
competitive, that people over there may view these bikes a bit like
250s, smaller, less powerful bikes that are better to train riders for
the 800s (or 600s in the future?) in GP, or maybe as a natural
transition to the new stock 600-based support class in GP. Or NASBike
could get as isolated from the world scene as NASCAR is from F1. Who
knows.


That's a very tenuous thread you've decided to crawl out on, Julian.
Most of your complaints about Speed really relate to commercial
breaks, right? And that's just a fact of life in the US for everyone,
including the very biggest sports - have you ever watched the Super
Bowl here? Me, I can't stand some of the announcers I have to tolerate
watching GP and WSB, but that's just another fact of life.

Regarding the meat of the matter, yes, the other teams need to do
better. Yosh had a superior bike in '03 when the switch to 1000-4s
first happened and none of the others came along. But in '04 Honda had
the better bike, but Mladin won based on his skill and the other
intangibles. Ducati was the main threat in 05-06, but they simply
couldn't get it done, other than E-Boz on a few occasions. I think Mat
and Ben are the best riders in the series, so that means the others
have to have better bikes, and they haven't managed that yet. You made
the case that Ducati is winning all the time in BSB and WSB because
Bayliss and Byrne are better riders, so why isn't that an acceptable
case to be made in the AMA?

Strikes me that you don't want questions answered, you don't want any
real discussion, you just want to take more shots at American racing.
If so, try to hold off another year and let 'er fly...

 
Scratches head, trying to remember. It's a shame the websites that cover
BSB are so shit. Edwards and Bayliss went to MotoGP in '03. And there
was no Honda factory team in WSB '03. '03 was the year Shakey Byrne won,
with Reynolds and Rutter on Ducatis, Steve Plater on a Honda and Yukio
Kagayama had his big crash at Cadwell on the Rizla Suzuki. Kiyonari's
debut was in 2004.

There's more out there somewhere but I can't find it now.


Shakey Byrne. Mallory Park 1st race. And he had 9 podiums last year.
Really he had a bad year on a badly set up bike run by a messy team. But
he wasn't completely out of the hunt.


Pirelli tyres are no longer crappy. A lot of development can be done in
4 years. Most WSB lap records are now on Pirellis. Wait. Didn't the
Daytona 200 just get won on Pirellis? And yes, I know that was FX.


Yes, actually. And no it's not just the ads, although they make it 10
times worse.


The problem is not one team or two riders winning all the time. It's
that the next pack along are 10, 20, 30 seconds back. And that's the
problem. 2 riders way out front on their own is an interesting battle
but it would be that much more exciting entertainment if there were
another 4 snapping at their heels. Neither Bayliss nor Byrne have had it
easy this year, they've had to fight for every single win with not just
one bike right behind them but a whole gaggle of them. If all you do is
count wins, you get a very misleading picture of what the races were
actually like. Right now the Ducati 1098R is pretty evenly matched with
the other bikes with different strengths and it's not the fastest which
is making the racing great.


Well sadly, rec.moto.racing is dominated by Americans and all anyone
wants to talk about is American racing. For those of us who think that's
an irrelevant side show, there's not a lot to do except take pot shots.

--
Julian Bond  E&MSN: julian_bond at voidstar.com  M: +44 (0)77 5907 2173
Webmaster:          http://www.ecademy.com/       T: +44 (0)192 0412 433
Personal WebLog:    http://www.voidstar.com/      skype:julian.bond?chat
                           Rinses Out Easily